Don Carson on Hell

[KingsGambit]

The term "lake of fire" is only used in Revelation, where nearly every detail included probably has symbolic import. The key is determining what it stands for.

[Scrawly]

The term "lake of fire" is only used in Revelation, where nearly every detail included probably has symbolic import. The key is determining what it stands for.

"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever" (Rev. 4:9)

"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever" (Rev. 4:10)

"saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever." (Rev. 7:12)

""And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:11)

What ever the lake of fire stands for it appears to exist for ever and ever. Likewise, the inhabitants of the lake of fire seem to undergo torment for ever and ever - hardly paints the picture of utter annihilation.

[KingsGambit]

"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever" (Rev. 4:9)

"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever" (Rev. 4:10)

"saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever." (Rev. 7:12)

""And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:11)

What ever the lake of fire stand for it appears to exist for ever and ever. Likewise, the inhabitants of the lake of fire seem to undergo torment for ever and ever - hardly paints the picture of utter annihilation.

Revelation 14:11 certainly can't stand for an eternal torment in hell because the previous verse (14:10) states that it is in the presence of the Lamb (Jesus) and the angels. This would be directly contradictory to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which you cited earlier.

ETA: It is the smoke that rises "forever and ever".

[Scrawly]

Revelation 14:11 certainly can't stand for an eternal torment in hell because the previous verse (14:10) states that it is in the presence of the Lamb (Jesus) and the angels. This would be directly contradictory to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 which you cited earlier.

ETA: It is the smoke that rises "forever and ever".

We can deal with possible contradictions after analysis of the texts. But I think it is worth noticing that revelation 14:10: which states: "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." refers to the execution of God's wrath. This initial judgment/execution will not last for ever and ever but the torment of the unsaved will last for ever and ever and they will be cut off from the presence and fellowship that the redeemed will enjoy, for ever and ever.

Yes the smoke of their torment. I'm not seeing non-existence there..

[KingsGambit]

We can deal with possible contradictions after analysis of the texts. But I think it is worth noticing that revelation 14:10: which states: "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." refers to the execution of God's wrath. This initial judgment/execution will not last for ever and ever but the torment of the unsaved will last for ever and ever and they will be cut off from the presence and fellowship that the redeemed will enjoy, for ever and ever.

Yes the smoke of their torment. I'm not seeing non-existence there..

The presence of the Lamb/angels is critical to the analysis of the symbolism and can't be pushed aside, as Ralph Bowles points out here: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf

As for Revelation 14:10, it actually more or less quotes Isaiah 34:10 verbatim, where the smoke is the memorial of the destruction. There, it talks about Edom's smoke rising forever and ever... but the rest of the context of Isaiah 34 makes clear that the destruction of Edom is in view and there is no hint elsewhere in the chapter of ongoing existence of Edom's people.

[apostoli]

Yes and where are they disposed to? The lake of fire, right? Now, where in Scripture does it state that the lake of fire, or those within it, cease to exist at some point?

Death and hades are temporal conditions. Turn the page in your Bible and you'll discover A.John's revelation of a new heaven and earth. The former things pass away=cease to exist...That is the explicit witness of A.John. Your opinion, my opinion, anyone else's opinion (or wishful thinking) is/are irrelevant...Again I refer you to Ezekiel 18, where we learn that the philosophical justification of vengence and mankind's idea of justice do not equate to God's method...

[Scrawly]

The presence of the Lamb/angels is critical to the analysis of the symbolism and can't be pushed aside, as Ralph Bowles points out here: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf

As stated, I don't see a problem with Jesus and the angels initially being in the presence of the wicked in order to execute judgment upon them. This is the stage where the wicked are receiving judgement and drinking the cup of God's wrath so I assume Jesus is present for this stage. That "single shot" of wrath/power lasts in effect for eternity and the wicked suffer eternal torment thereafter by being shut out from the presence of the Lord (2Thess. 1:9).

As for Revelation 14:10, it actually more or less quotes Isaiah 34:10 verbatim, where the smoke is the memorial of the destruction. There, it talks about Edom's smoke rising forever and ever... but the rest of the context of Isaiah 34 makes clear that the destruction of Edom is in view and there is no hint elsewhere in the chapter of ongoing existence of Edom's people.

I don't see a problem with that verse being used in a typological manner in favor of eternal torment . Moreover, the entire verse of Rev. 14:11 states: "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." Revelation uses the phrase "day and night" to refer to things that occur continuously. (4:8, 7:15, 12:10). This, once again, hardly paints the picture of utter annihilation unto non-existence.

[Scrawly]

Death and hades are temporal conditions. Turn the page in your Bible and you'll discover A.John's revelation of a new heaven and earth. The former things pass away=cease to exist...That is the explicit witness of A.John. Your opinion, my opinion, anyone else's opinion (or wishful thinking) is/are irrelevant...Again I refer you to Ezekiel 18, where we learn that the philosophical justification of vengence and mankind's idea of justice do not equate to God's method...

Can you please show me where the second death/lake of fire and it's inhabitants are in a temporal state?

[KingsGambit]

I don't see a problem with that verse being used in a typological manner in favor of eternal torment . Moreover, the entire verse of Rev. 14:11 states: "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." Revelation uses the phrase "day and night" to refer to things that occur continuously. (4:8, 7:15, 12:10). This, once again, hardly paints the picture of utter annihilation unto non-existence.

If you are interested we could do a (friendly) formal debate on here over this particular verse, or the subject in general... because I was about to reply with an overly long post and I figured it might just be better to offer to do that to make things easier.

[apostoli]

Can you please show me where the second death/lake of fire and it's inhabitants are in a temporal state?

So you question the teaching of the bodily resurrection?

[apostoli]

The term "lake of fire" is only used in Revelation, where nearly every detail included probably has symbolic import. The key is determining what it stands for.

Imu, "the lake of fire" is equated with the Jewish concept of Gehenna. Imu, in Jewish teaching there are three divisions in Hades = those in the bosom of Abraham awaiting resurrection, those on the other side of a chasm awaiting judgement. On that side there flows a river of fire (Gehenna?) into which those condemned are thrown...

[Scrawly]

If you are interested we could do a (friendly) formal debate on here over this particular verse, or the subject in general... because I was about to reply with an overly long post and I figured it might just be better to offer to do that to make things easier.

No thanks, formal debates are far too scary for me. I thank you for the discussion though.

[The Remonstrant]

Isaiah 34:10; Revelation 14:11 & 19:3: Ascending Smoke & Final Annihilation

Earlier in this thread, I observed KingsGambit (KG) and Scrawly dialoguing over how Revelation 14:11 is best understood in the context of final judgement. Does this text support everlasting conscious torment or final annihilation?

(Note: For our purposes, at the outset of the discussion I am ruling out the possibility of all persons without exception eventually being reconciled to God through Christ. In other words, I am discounting any and all forms of strict Christian universalism in this message.)

KG rightly observed above that the Isaianic background needs to be taken into consideration prior to our assuming that John of Patmos intended to convey something like the literal ongoing torment of the lost in Rev.14:11.¹ The Apocalypse is rife with imagery borrowed from the Hebrew Scriptures. This must be kept in mind first and foremost before an exchange of this nature may be profitable in any way. If exaggerative language is to be used anywhere in the biblical canon, it is in an apocalyptic letter to the church(es) such as Revelation. That said, we will now turn to the texts under consideration:

⁸ For [Yahweh] has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
⁹ And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
¹⁰ Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. (Is.34:8-10)<sup>2

9</sup> And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, ¹⁰ he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." (Rev.14:9-11)

As observed above, Rev.14:11 shares the language of "night and day" with Is.34:10 (though in reverse order); the sulfur and burning pitch of Isaiah (34:9) is on par with Revelation's "fire and sulfur" (14:10); and the picture of perpetually ascending smoke is present in both Is.34:10 and Rev.14:11. In Isaiah 34, the irreversible destruction of Edom is clearly in view. The question before us, then, is whether the author of Revelation intends to convey a similar picture of permanent destruction in the fearful judgement scene of 14:9-11. I will maintain that he does. Before proceeding any further, however, it will be necessary to turn to Revelation 18 and 19 first.

In Revelation 18 "Babylon the great" (v.2) is judged by God and finally destroyed. Because of her pomp,

⁸ "her plagues will come in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up [katakauthēsetai]³ with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."

⁹ And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
¹⁰ They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,

"Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon!
For in a single hour your judgment has come." (Rev.18:8-10)

Verse 21 leaves no doubt as to the fate of Babylon:

Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,

"So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence,
and will be found no more[.]"

Following the judgement scene of chapter 18, we read:

¹ After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out,

"Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
² for his judgments are true and just;
for he has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."

³ Once more they cried out,

"Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up forever and ever." (Rev.19:1-3)⁴

Given the context in which Rev.19:3 occurs, there is little doubt that it refers to the complete and final destruction of Babylon. The language of "the smoke from her" ascending "forever and ever", then, must be taken as a hyperbolic declaration indicating the thoroughness of Babylon's devastation. This is in keeping with the language of irreversible extinction depicted in Is.34:10 regarding the absolute ruin of Edom, the background text for Rev.14:11. Smoke going up forever denotes the utter desolation of the city not its perpetual torment.⁵ It is another way of saying that the wicked city will never rise or be inhabited again. The same holds true for Rev.19:3.

The similarity between Rev.14:11 and 19:3 is that of smoke ascending "to the ages of ages". If in the latter text it is a sign of everlasting destruction, the possibility of a similar expression being used earlier in the epistle to depict a severe divine judgement resulting in the final annihilation of those receiving the mark of the beast is all the more plausible. Intense symbolic imagery and exaggerative language are without question prevalent throughout Revelation. It is only when Revelation's Old Testament antecedents (such as Isaiah 34) are ignored or obfuscated by traditionalist interpreters (and the genre of literature The Apocalypse inhabits conveniently overlooked) that one may so easily arrive at a doctrine of endless torment.^{6 7}


Notes

¹ In light of Rev.14:12, v.11 functions primarily as a warning (undoubtedly of the severest kind) against the saints of God capitulating to the beast power and finally apostatizing by receiving "the mark of its name". As we read in v.12: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus [or the faith of Jesus]." The issue at stake is God's people remaining faithful to Jesus and the Father in the face of persecution, a recurring theme throughout The Apocalypse. The rhetoric is intended to spur the saints onward in order to attain their reward.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!" (Rev.14:13)

Whatever one is to make of the state of the dead, the ultimate destiny of the saints is receiving the crown of life and inhabiting the new heavens and new earth in everlasting communion with "the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb" (Rev.21:22; cf. 2:7,10,11,17,26-28; 3:5,12,21; 21:1ff.).

² Unless otherwise indicated, all Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version (ESV).

³ Katakaio: "to burn up, consume by fire".

• http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexic.../katakaio.html

⁴ Literally, "to the ages of ages" (Darby Translation; cf. Young's Literal Translation). Cp. Rev.14:11.

⁵ The first scriptural account depicting the imagery of fire, sulfur, and smoke arising is to be found in Genesis. Incidentally, the result of God's judgement in raining "fire and sulfur . . . out of heaven" upon Sodom and Gomorrah is the complete and irreversible destruction of the cities and their inhabitants (cf. Luke 17:28-30; 2 Peter 2:6; Jude 7):

²⁴ [Yahweh] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the [Yahweh] out of heaven. ²⁵ And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. . . . ²⁷ And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord. ²⁸ And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace. (Gen.19:24,25,27,28)

⁶ Destruction and loss of life as the end of the unrighteous is the overriding teaching of Scripture. There is a small batch of texts, however (primarily from the NT), that are often strung along together by traditionalists so as to convey the doctrine of endless conscious torment. These texts are in actuality few and far between and are not quite as insurmountable to the case for annihilationism as is often supposed.

The starting presupposition of many Christian theists is that all humanity is either in some way presently endowed with immortality or will be constituted such at some point in the future (e.g., at the eschaton, the resurrection of the just and the unjust when Christ returns). This false notion must first be countered by annihilationists before any headway can be made in an exchange with traditionalists concerning the destiny of those who have failed to respond positively to the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ in repentance and faith. (I have deliberately worded the previous sentence carefully as the destiny of the unevangelized is another matter entirely. That said, the inclusivist-exclusivist debate is certainly a topic worthy of discussion.)

⁷ For those who are interested in a more detailed approach to an annihilationist interpretation of Rev.14:11, see R.G. Bowles, "Does Revelation 14: 11 Teach Eternal Torment? Examining a Proof-text on Hell", The Evangelical Quarterly 73.1 (2001).

• http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2001-1_021.pdf

[apostoli]

Yes and where are they disposed to? The lake of fire, right? Now, where in Scripture does it state that the lake of fire, or those within it, cease to exist at some point?

Turn the page in your Bible and read Revelation chapter 21....the former things pass away = cease to exist...

Interestingly, a Christadelphian elder once pointed me to Rev 22:15 and asked me who were those that apparently survived the second death and were excluded from the New Jerusalem. Defined in Revelation as "without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie". On the spur of the moment, in semi-jest, I responded "Obviously Christadelphians!" but on reflection that was unfair, I'd include in the exclusion all of the American independent churches...

[The Remonstrant]

Turn the page in your Bible and read Revelation chapter 21....the former things pass away = cease to exist...

Interestingly, a Christadelphian elder once pointed me to Rev 22:15 and asked me who were those that apparently survived the second death and were excluded from the New Jerusalem. Defined in Revelation as "without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie". On the spur of the moment, in semi-jest, I responded "Obviously Christadelphians!" but on reflection that was unfair, I'd include in the exclusion all of the American independent churches...

Rev.22:3 is also key:

No longer will there be anything accursed [katathema], but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it [the new Jerusalem], and his servants will worship him.^{1 2}

I suppose one may argue that the curse is indeed eternal in its effects and continues somewhere outside the new heavens, the new earth, and new Jerusalem. Indeed, the traditionalist maintains that many accursed things will exist throughout the ceaseless ages, never coming to a permanent end. Texts like Rev.21:4 and 22:3 must necessarily be blunted in order to maintain the theory of endless torment.

In Rev.21:27 we learn that the gates of new Jerusalem "will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there". Similarly, in 22:5: "And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever." Yet if this is taken as anything less than a universal or absolute statement, we must suppose that there is a literal twenty-four hour cycle consisting of night and day in the lake of fire where the devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented endlessly, for 20:10 states that this torment will occur "day and night". As apostoli maintains, however, suffering is a part of the former (or first [prōta]) things belonging to old creation. As we read in Rev.21:4: "death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore". Declarations of this nature lose a tremendous amount of impact and are essentially divested of meaning when it is nevertheless maintained that a large body of God's creatures will be actively tormented throughout eternity.

In summary, Rev.20:10 may be best understood only when we take the following imagery in The Apocalypse into consideration (20:11ff.). In the last two chapters of The Apocalypse we learn that death, mourning, crying, pain, night, and accursed things will no longer be. The curse will have been completely erased. Those who have died the second death will be no more.³ These things will not have a place in God's renewed universe.


Notes

¹ Unless otherwise indicated, all Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version (ESV).

² Cp. the Revised Standard Version. The New American Standard Bible reads: "There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him".

³ Traditionalists typically maintain that the second death is a kind of "paradoxical" apocalyptic metaphor for endless life in torment, not eternal non-existence, cessation of being, or non-life.