Don Carson on Hell

[KingsGambit]

The word group which includes "destroy" and its synonyms is used in a variety of ways, some of which do not require or even imply the cessation of existence. In other words, a careful examination of usage indicates that destruction can occur without extinction of being.

Carson frequently makes that argument but elsewhere, he has called this exact same type of argument that he makes here an exegetical fallacy. Other than maybe the one Revelation chapter, there isn't an exegetical reason to expand the definition far enough to exclude the regular meaning. (See page 12 here: http://www.rightreason.org/article/t...ilationist.pdf )

In particular, I think it is difficult to find an alternative meaning for 1 Corinthians 15:26 beyond literal death. Since a basic scriptural principle is using the clear to illuminate the obscure rather than the other way around, I don't think it's appropriate to use highly symbolic, apocalyptic language to drive our exegesis of all these other passages.

[KingsGambit]

I also wonder about Mt. 18:8 which speaks of those who are thrown into the eternal fire. As Carson mentions in his book "the gagging of God", "one is surely entitled to ask why the fires should burn forever and the worms not die [cf. Mark 9:47-48] if their purpose comes to an end"

Eternal describes the effects, not the actual process per se. For example, with eternal judgment in Hebrews 6:2, the judgment process itself surely does not go on forever but the effect is irreversible.

[Obsidian]

Destroying the devil in Hebrews 2:14 does not refer to punishing the devil in hell.

[KingsGambit]

Destroying the devil in Hebrews 2:14 does not refer to punishing the devil in hell.

Even if one didn't think so, we still have Ezekiel 28 to contend with.

[Scrawly]

Carson frequently makes that argument but elsewhere, he has called this exact same type of argument that he makes here an exegetical fallacy. Other than maybe the one Revelation chapter, there isn't an exegetical reason to expand the definition far enough to exclude the regular meaning. (See page 12 here: http://www.rightreason.org/article/t...ilationist.pdf )

I think the argument for the devil ceasing to exist in Hebrews 2:14 doesn't carry much weight especially in light of 2Thess. 1:9 which likewise talks of destruction - away from the presence of the Lord - therefore, not annihilation. Rev. 20:10 uses similar language to Rev. 4:8 - "day and night" - which once again seems to have eternity in view.

In particular, I think it is difficult to find an alternative meaning for 1 Corinthians 15:26 beyond literal death. Since a basic scriptural principle is using the clear to illuminate the obscure rather than the other way around, I don't think it's appropriate to use highly symbolic, apocalyptic language to drive our exegesis of all these other passages.

So you think death is literally doing to die?

[Scrawly]

Eternal describes the effects, not the actual process per se. For example, with eternal judgment in Hebrews 6:2, the judgment process itself surely does not go on forever but the effect is irreversible.

Yes and likewise with the unsaved - the process of judgment is not eternal but the penalty/flames that do not quench goes on for an eternity; and if you have eternal flames where, the worm does not die, it seems to make little sense for the unsaved to have long been annihilated.

[KingsGambit]

I think the argument for the devil ceasing to exist in Hebrews 2:14 doesn't carry much weight especially in light of 2Thess. 1:9 which likewise talks of destruction - away from the presence of the Lord - therefore, not annihilation. Rev. 20:10 uses similar language to Rev. 4:8 - "day and night" - which once again seems to have eternity in view.

I don't understand how this necessitates a continual existence. One is banished from God and sent to a punishment that culminates in destruction. (The NIV mistranslates this pretty badly but you didn't quote the NIV so there's no need to go into it ).

So you think death is literally doing to die?

Yes, there will be no more death once God has made all in all. All discordant elements will be done with.

[Obsidian]

Your position is self-contradictory, because on the one hand you claim that hell may last a long time, but on the other hand you claim that death will be destroyed at the same time when believers are resurrected.

[KingsGambit]

Your position is self-contradictory, because on the one hand you claim that hell may last a long time, but on the other hand you claim that death will be destroyed at the same time when believers are resurrected.

I don't think so. There is no reason why the process of destruction can begin and take a bit of time.

[Scrawly]

[QUOTE=KingsGambit;74149]I don't understand how this necessitates a continual existence. One is banished from God and sent to a punishment that culminates in destruction. (The NIV mistranslates this pretty badly but you didn't quote the NIV so there's no need to go into it ).

Where in 2Thess. 1:9 do you see a point of culmination that ends in non-existence?

Yes, there will be no more death once God has made all in all. All discordant elements will be done with.

Right, so death is the last enemy to be abolished from the new and heaven and earth. How will death be abolished? Well, according to revelation 20:14: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." So how does this support annihilationism?

[apostoli]

Sure, the wicked and righteous both have everlasting existence.



Well, as stated earlier the Bible teaches the wicked will undergo eternal destruction. Jesus also stated in Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So to recap:

1.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Possess everlasting existence, being made in the image of God

2.
a) Wicked (those outside of Christ): Eternal destruction/punishment in hell
b) Righteous (those in Christ): Eternal blessedness in heaven

To put some flys in your ointment...

1. According to Jesus the soul can cease to exist, thus at God's choosing "eternal existence" is relative to God's will...
2. There is nothing in scripture that depicts a Hell like existence that is perpetual.
3. There is nothing in scripture that depicts a Heavenly existence...though there is depiction of an existence that is in the presence of God (eg: the New Jerusalem firmly established on the new earth).

[apostoli]

I also wonder about Mt. 18:8 which speaks of those who are thrown into the eternal fire. As Carson mentions in his book "the gagging of God", "one is surely entitled to ask why the fires should burn forever and the worms not die [cf. Mark 9:47-48] if their purpose comes to an end"

In the original language the word in both the Hebrew and Greek is singular not plural. There is only one worm...(actually worm is a poor translation. In Isaiah where the quote originates, the word used refers to an insect from which dyers derived the color crimson. More of a beetle than a worm.)

[apostoli]

The word group which includes "destroy" and its synonyms is used in a variety of ways, some of which do not require or even imply the cessation of existence. In other words, a careful examination of usage indicates that destruction can occur without extinction of being.

Did Sodom, Gomorrah or Tyre continue to persist or was their destruction absolute? Also, what about the people deluged in the flood? And all the masses YHWH summarily removed from the land. (?)

The biblical metaphor in all its examples indicates cessation of existence for those that displease God...

Of course, in philosophy there is the issue of equity, but in scripture God apparently ignores mankind's imaginings (see Ez 18, where YHWH rejects man's perspective on justice).

[apostoli]

Your position is self-contradictory, because on the one hand you claim that hell may last a long time, but on the other hand you claim that death will be destroyed at the same time when believers are resurrected.

Kingsgambit's proposition is simply a repetition of exactly what the scriptures state. On the 2nd resurrection death and hades are disposed of along with those not in the book of life. Which is why there will be no more tears when the new heavens and earth eventuate.

Believe it or not, but that is the testimony of A.John's Revelation...

[Scrawly]

..death and hades are disposed of along with those not in the book of life...

Yes and where are they disposed to? The lake of fire, right? Now, where in Scripture does it state that the lake of fire, or those within it, cease to exist at some point?