Controversy on Christianity Today's website

[apostoli]

Of more interest to me: Is there a single Christian denomination that advocates the prostitution of their daughters? Moses is depicted as having an ordinance that allowed such...

There was (and maybe still is) a group calling itself Christian that did so. 1970s/80s sometime is the last I remember hearing of them.

Do they advocate stoning of all adulterers?

I should think not. given under Moses' law only a woman could commit adultery. Men could screw anyone they want - abeilt, as long as they weren't already betrothed - out with the thrash goes King David,,,

No. If a man an woman were caught committing adultery, both were to be stoned. Have you even read the Pentateuch!? I almost want to think that's a trollish response...

Is David's statutory rape of Bathsheba, and his complicit murder of her husband to cover up her pregnancy, subject to the Mosses' laws

Yes

even though in scripture it is obvious, David is depicted as being totally ignorant of Moses' laws?

Where does that claim come from?

For a start David broke most of Moses' ordinances and severely ignored most of God's Law (the Decalogue).

David & Bathsheba weren't stoned to death! A requirement of Moses' ordinances...

Death penalties had to have two or three witnesses of the crime say they say it happen. And they weren't black and white.

David didn't live alone!!! When he summoned Bathsheba to his bed there were numerous witnesses...Heh! He was King! He had the power of life and death over everyone! What could anyone do to intervene in his rape of Bathsheba...

[tabibito]

For a start David broke most of Moses' ordinances and severely ignored most of God's Law (the Decalogue). David didn't live alone!!! When he summoned Bathsheba to his bed there were numerous witnesses...Heh! He was King! He had the power of life and death over everyone! What could anyone do to intervene in his rape of Bathsheba...

Excusing the muddled attribution of statements in the quotes.

Nathan continues his indictment:

2 Samuel 12:12 ‘For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ ”

Your assertion that there were undoubtedly witnesses runs counter to the recorded words of a prophet.

The fact that David took Bathsheba to his chambers would not have constituted evidence of adultery, or, perhaps you think they invited spectators? In all likelihood David would have been above suspicion: he was after all the Lord's anointed. It would be surprising if anyone thought that anything untoward was happening. Of course, this is just as much speculation as anything you have stated.

Given that the king's actions impacted on all of Israel, in accord with the covenant made at the time that appointment of a king was first given approval by God, it is fairly clear that the kings were, at least in theory, as much subject at least to the laws of God as anyone else. Moreover, anyone that the king chose to accuse had the same rights, again in theory, to trial as anyone else who had been accused.

The Biblical record shows that David and Bathsheba committed adultery, there is nothing to indicate rape.

[apostoli]

Excusing the muddled attribution of statements in the quotes.

Nathan continues his indictment:
Your assertion that there were undoubtedly witnesses runs counter to the recorded words of a prophet.

The fact that David took Bathsheba to his chambers would not have constituted evidence of adultery, or, perhaps you think they invited spectators? In all likelihood David would have been above suspicion: he was after all the Lord's anointed. It would be surprising if anyone thought that anything untoward was happening. Of course, this is just as much speculation as anything you have stated.

I won't dispute the topic with you. The fact remains that God (YHWH) decided to euthanasie David's offspring as punishment...

Given that the king's actions impacted on all of Israel, in accord with the covenant made at the time that appointment of a king was first given approval by God, it is fairly clear that the kings were, at least in theory, as much subject at least to the laws of God as anyone else.

If you read scripture you may find your presumption is not true!

Moreover, anyone that the king chose to accuse had the same rights, again in theory, to trial as anyone else who had been accused.

Again, if you read scripture you may find your presumption is not true! The Judges and Kings are depicted as very unjust. There is at least one account of the King that had executed any prophet that made a prediction that displeased him.

The Biblical record shows that David and Bathsheba committed adultery, there is nothing to indicate rape.

Did Bathsheba have a choice? In all probability she was just a child...

I use the term statutory rape, because in the societal conditions of the time (and even in some parts of the world even today!), Bathsheba was probably aged anywhere between 6yo and 13yo...Given she became pregnant I'm inclined to the later age...

[tabibito]

Assertions regarding Bathsheba's age on the basis of no evidence whatever.
Allegations of statutory rape based on a culturally instilled concept of acceptable behaviour - with an assumed superiority of those concepts on the basis of no evidence whatever.
Supporting the charge of statutory rape based on assertions regarding the lower limit for marriageable age of a female in Israel a few millenia since - with no attempt to supply supporting evidence for the stated lower age limit, and even for the upper pulled out of thin air age estimate.
Just as a by the way, the charge of Statutory Rape is levelled against God by some atheists on the grounds that Mary was only (assumed to be) about 14 years of age.
Allegations of injustice on the part of Judges without any attempt to support them with evidence.

[apostoli]

Assertions regarding Bathsheba's age on the basis of no evidence whatever.
Allegations of statutory rape based on a culturally instilled concept of acceptable behaviour - with an assumed superiority of those concepts on the basis of no evidence whatever.
Supporting the charge of statutory rape based on assertions regarding the lower limit for marriageable age of a female in Israel a few millenia since - with no attempt to supply supporting evidence for the stated lower age limit, and even for the upper pulled out of thin air age estimate.
Just as a by the way, the charge of Statutory Rape is levelled against God by some atheists on the grounds that Mary was only (assumed to be) about 14 years of age.
Allegations of injustice on the part of Judges without any attempt to support them with evidence.

Heh dude, the facts are common knowledge and support is readily accessable via the Talmud. In fact the traditions of Moses are still enacted and supported by various Muslim societies. Turn on your TV, there are reports nearly every day!!! In your unrightious indication do not forget that neither King David nor Bathsheba were publicly punished under Moses' Ordinances!!! Instead God (YHWH) over-road human laws and simply euthanised the bastard progeny...

I presume you reject the explicit testimony of scripture...and prefer to delve into your own illicit fantasies...

[tabibito]

Heh dude, the facts are common knowledge and support is readily accessable via the Talmud. In fact the traditions of Moses are still enacted and supported by various Muslim societies. Turn on your TV, there are reports nearly every day!!! In your unrightious indication do not forget that neither King David nor Bathsheba were publicly punished under Moses' Ordinances!!! Instead God (YHWH) over-road human laws and simply euthanised the bastard progeny...

I presume you reject the explicit testimony of scripture...and prefer to delve into your own illicit fantasies...

Even if your allegations had any veracity, still it would be no more than a matter of the pot calling the kettle black.

[apostoli]

your illicit fantasies...

Even if your allegations had any veracity, still it would be no more than a matter of the pot calling the kettle black.

At least my projections are supportable from both documented ancient and modern history.

Earlier you raised the age of Mary. Probability is she was 13yo when she conceived Jesus. That is a universal conservative opinion that no one with any educated opinion I've encountered disputes...

At my local library I did encounter a book written by a Methodist minister that advocated that Mary was knocked up by a priest named Simeon...Could be, but I doubt it...for I can explain, scientifically, Mary's spontaneous conception. Can you?

[tabibito]

Given that the scriptures state Mary was found to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit - I doubt that the scientific possibilities, and a couple might be viable, come into play.
Some stories consider parthenogenesis as a possibility - in that case it would be necessary that she was an XY female ... it happens, but in humans it is exceedingly rare. In any event, scientific possibilities would remove the action of God and in particular, the Holy Spirit, as being directly responsible for the pregnancy.
My comment about Mary supposedly being 14 is based not on any rejection of the possibility, but a lack of any concrete evidence about her age.
Stories that Mary became pregnant as a result of pre-marital sex have been in circulation since the first century - the Jewish records of the time allege that a Roman soldier was the father.
I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that a pre-pubescent girl was given in marriage in Israel at any time. That is not to say that it didn't happen, just that I have not seen any authoritative claim to that effect.

[KingsGambit]

My comment about Mary supposedly being 14 is based not on any rejection of the possibility, but a lack of any concrete evidence about her age.
Stories that Mary became pregnant as a result of pre-marital sex have been in circulation since the first century - the Jewish records of the time allege that a Roman soldier was the father.

I'm glad you clarified this because I actually had never looked into this. I had heard a number of claims to the effect that she was ~13-16 and simply assumed they were based on something concrete.

[tabibito]

It is a reasonable assumption, as it would fall within (what I know of) the standard practices of the time. 16 would, I think, be somewhat unlikely, as would 13, but neither is out of the question.

[apostoli]

Given that the scriptures state Mary was found to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit - I doubt that the scientific possibilities, and a couple might be viable, come into play.
Some stories consider parthenogenesis as a possibility - in that case it would be necessary that she was an XY female ... it happens, but in humans it is exceedingly rare. In any event, scientific possibilities would remove the action of God and in particular, the Holy Spirit, as being directly responsible for the pregnancy.
My comment about Mary supposedly being 14 is based not on any rejection of the possibility, but a lack of any concrete evidence about her age.
Stories that Mary became pregnant as a result of pre-marital sex have been in circulation since the first century - the Jewish records of the time allege that a Roman soldier was the father.
I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that a pre-pubescent girl was given in marriage in Israel at any time. That is not to say that it didn't happen, just that I have not seen any authoritative claim to that effect.

I can accept your viewpoint to some degree. Scientifically we can include mitosis, mosaicism and a range of other isms that explain spontaneous conception. God the Fathe is reputed to enact his will within the boundaries of his creation...

[tabibito]

I can accept your viewpoint to some degree. Scientifically we can include mitosis, mosaicism and a range of other isms that explain spontaneous conception. God the Fathe is reputed to enact his will within the boundaries of his creation...

And none of the isms allow for the possibility that the Word became flesh.

[apostoli]

And none of the isms allow for the possibility that the Word became flesh.

Actually, there are a couple that do...each requiring an intervention...

[tabibito]

Can you affirm that God "tweaking the natural order" so to speak, would result in the second person of the Trinity becoming a man?

[hedrick]

I can accept your viewpoint to some degree. Scientifically we can include mitosis, mosaicism and a range of other isms that explain spontaneous conception. God the Fathe is reputed to enact his will within the boundaries of his creation...

Huh? Where would the Y chromosome come from?