Wrath upon you in every case I can find is always from God. This wrath wasn't from God, it was from demonic forces. The Moabites getting angry at Israel for their own King sacrificing his son on the wall makes no sense.
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Wrath of Chemosh(?)
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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The death of their prince by the leader of their nation? Why would they get mad at the Israelites for that? Why wouldn't they be mad at the King? And why then after the sacrifice?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIt doesn't say that there was any wrath "visited" upon anyone. It says:
2 Kings 3:27
Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostWrath upon you in every case I can find is always from God. This wrath wasn't from God, it was from demonic forces. The Moabites getting angry at Israel for their own King sacrificing his son on the wall makes no sense.
In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.
Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 07-19-2018, 08:15 PM.
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So...your positing that God was angry at Israel and Judah because the Moabite king sacrificed his son to a demonic "god" Chemosh in a burnt offering? Sorry, but you'll need to convince me of that one. It makes more sense that the Moabites were empowered by the sacrifice to a demonic power. We see in the N.T. when Jesus cast out the man inhabited by Legion that he was uncontrollable and even chains could not hold him. For a handful of soldiers left to route an army that has up to now devastated everything obstacle in their path seems far fetched that there wasn't something else going on. Do you have trouble believing that there was a spiritual battle going on as well? Remember when King David went up against the Philistines and God told him to wait until he heard the marching in the trees to attack.
The verse echoes the curse upon the site of Jericho in Joshua 6:
Joshua 6:26
In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.
Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-19-2018, 09:04 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSo...your positing that God was angry at Israel and Judah because the Moabite king sacrificed his son to a demonic "god" Chemosh in a burnt offering?
3For he rebuilt the high places that his father Hezekiah had destroyed, and he raised up altars for Baal. He made an Asherah pole, as King Ahab of Israel had done, and he worshiped and served all the host of heaven.
45In both courtyards of the house of the LORD, he built altars to all the host of heaven.
6He sacrificed his own son in the fire,a practiced sorcery and divination, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did great evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.
789But the people did not listen and Manasseh led them astray, so that they did greater evil than the nations the LORD had destroyed before the Israelites.
2 Kings 21: http://biblehub.com/bsb/2_kings/21.htm
2 Chronicles 33: http://biblehub.com/bsb/2_chronicles/33.htm
Sorry, but you'll need to convince me of that one. It makes more sense that the Moabites were empowered by the sacrifice to a demonic power. We see in the N.T. when Jesus cast out the man inhabited by Legion that he was uncontrollable and even chains could not hold him.For a handful of soldiers left to route an army that has up to now devastated everything obstacle in their path seems far fetched that there wasn't something else going on.Do you have trouble believing that there was a spiritual battle going on as well?Remember when King David went up against the Philistines and God told him to wait until he heard the marching in the trees to attack.
Looks to me as if Hiel the Bethelite fulfilled the prophecy not King Mesha of Moab?
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Postsnip
It looks as though I led you astray. My point was simply that the two acts of human sacrifice illuminated each other.
In the latter you have someone losing their sons because they broke a commandment of God. Very different circumstances, and the same goes for Manasseh. Manasseh sacrificed his children, and incurred the wrath of God for doing such evil.
Your attempts to compartmentalize the Bible lead you to getting things backwards as is usual for you. All of the books of the Bible come from the same God. They are in agreement with each other, not conflicting each other.
The "principalities" that the NT speaks of are the same kind of beings as the "Prince of Persia" in the OT. The NT just reveals a further detail in that they are all subservient to one specific dark power, called Satan or the devil, rather than just off on their own. Not saying that they have no autonomy, but that there is a hierarchy.
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Ummm...it clearly says in the text that "...there came a great wrath against Israel", and this happened immediately after the sacrifice. As to what caused the "wrath" there are many theories I'll grant you...but the one that makes the most sense from the text IMO is demonic wrath of the demonic god Chemosh. This practice was apparently common amongst the Moabites/Canaanite's and others in the ANE world of this time. This article details some of what I'm saying:
A votive-pledge we shall fulfill:
A firstborn,
Baal, we shall sacrifice,
A child
we shall fulfill [as votive-pledge].Then shall Baal hearken to your prayers,
He shall drive the [enemy] force from your gates,
The aggressor from your walls.
Source: http://religionatthemargins.com/2011...d-2-kings-327/
As Cerebrum pointed out, the two are not analogous at all. Manasseh was King of Israel. Divine anger from Yahweh against the Israelites In 2 Kings 3 is unwarranted since they did not commit the offense.
Totally disagree with you. NT continues and expands upon the spiritual warfare theology that is all through Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The fact that we see more demonology displayed in the NT is certainly due to a refining/understanding of the apocalyptic world they lived in. But, I believe that understanding was because Satan was gaining more and more influence over the world as he did by Genesis 6 where God wiped out much of the evil. I believe it's why Jesus came during this time as it had reached a "fever pitch". Christ's main purpose for coming was to destroy the works of Satan...as St. John says in 1 John 3:8: "the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
It looks as though I led you astray. My point was simply that the two acts of human sacrifice illuminated each other."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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