Need advice from Christians well-versed in both philosophy and theology!

[Shaney777]

uh no. Becoming a Christian sets you free. It is not hard at all. You will feel like a weight has been lifted off of you. God forgives you for all of your sins and the dumb things you regret doing and will never ever condemn you for them. It's all forgotten.

"serving" God is not chore. Have you ever loved someone and wanted to please them and do things right because they deserve it and it makes you feel good to do the right thing for them? It's like that. You don't want to do all those old things any more.

Yes, there's certainly a lot of peace about the whole matter - I agree with you there. What I mean is that...well, according to one website, there are 667 (ironic) individual sins mentioned in the Bible, and I don't see how we could ever abstain from committing at least some of them on a daily basis. Sure, there is the verse which says we are liars if we claim to be without sin, but there is also the verse that says to be "perfect." In my studies, I came to believe firmly in Lordship salvation. If you don't treat Jesus as Lord, lose your life for him, manifest works & fruit, overcome habitual sin, etc, you won't make it to heaven. And making it to heaven must be "hard," else more than only a select "few" would make the trip.

There are lots of places in the Bible where verses seem contradictory, and they are addressing our very salvation - the most important thing possible. To me, salvation is not "clear" by any means, and I think that is evidenced by all the different views on what all must be done to attain salvation. Some will say that this is due to people "twisting" scripture for the own gain, but I say, after reading the verses myself, the text is genuinely confusing. Yes, textual criticism and historical study might be able to fix some of these "contradictions," but what is the common layman supposed to do?

I am not trying to start debates here; I promise. I know I write in an argumentative style. It's just because I am so frustrated over the whole thing!

[Shaney777]

I was pretty young at the time, but I can never forget what happened to me. I heard the doorbell and went to answer it. I opened the door to what on first glance looked like a child in a raincoat, and large rubber rain boots*. My mind started noticing some problems. Problem #1, It wasn't raining, and had been extremely sunny all day long. Problem 2#, red eyes long before colored contacts were easily obtained. Problem #3, intense sense of dread I started to have, and a feeling that can only be described as hatred emanating from this individual.
Noticing these things I immediately slammed the door, and ran to another room. Only to find it had beaten me to the other room. It's not like it just ran ahead of my either, I would have seen that happening. The only other way into the room was blocked by a very large, and very heavy sliding wood door. It didn't even looked like it had moved, but just popped into place. So I ran again. This time back to the front door. Which was of course, still closed. I turned around and looked behind me with my back to the door, and it was at the end of the hall. Just under the stairway which wrapped around the room on its way up to the second floor.
I was terrified, and felt trapped since it could just go anywhere with no effort. So I just stood there while it took each of it's exceedingly slow steps towards me. I felt something touch my shoulder, and I looked up. It was my dad. I looked back to where it had been, but there was nothing.

I didn't know about the stuff they had experienced, so I didn't tell him about what I saw at the time. I thought he would think I was crazy. At the time I thought they were making me get rid of my Ghostbusters toys because they thought the very idea of ghosts, or something similar was crazy, and they didn't want me to start thinking it could be real. What they were actually trying to do was get rid of anything they thought might be "inviting"** it in. They had had their own experiences. I don't remember all of the details of their experiences, but I remember a few things I've been told. My mom talked about basically being paralyzed, but never actually seeing anything. As soon as she said the name Jesus, she could move again. She also once thought my dad had come home when she felt someone get on the bed, but looked over to see no one there. There were also extremely loud sounds, like very large glass objects breaking. However when the rooms where it happened were inspected there was nothing that had fallen or broken at all.

*Much later while we lived there, I woke up in the middle of the night to hear someone walking up the stairs in our house. Sounded like they were wearing large rubber boots. The stairs were hard wood, so they made more distinct sounds depending on what was worn when walking on them.

I didn't want to go and check for myself, so I woke up my parents. They didn't really listen, and just said it was probably the house creaking. I didn't connect this incident with what happened before until later. Still gives me the chills.

**This was the advice given to them by our pastor at the time. Doesn't look like it worked since there were still strange things happening up until we left. My mom said it seemed like something didn't want us to leave, since strange things kept happening that kept us from getting to move. For a while at least. Eventually we got it all sorted out, but it wasn't easy according to them.

Oh my gah, that's horrid... You write super well too, so I felt that I was right there with you. So...that was a demon? It must have been connected to the house in some way, I guess? I openly say that I want some crazy experience to happen to me, but I know that if it was like yours, I'd instantly regret it.

[Cerebrum123]

Oh my gah, that's horrid... You write super well too, so I felt that I was right there with you.

Thank you for the compliment on my writing. Not something I am complimented for often. Yeah, it was terrifying.

So...that was a demon? It must have been connected to the house in some way, I guess? I openly say that I want some crazy experience to happen to me, but I know that if it was like yours, I'd instantly regret it.

[KingsGambit]

Yes, there's certainly a lot of peace about the whole matter - I agree with you there. What I mean is that...well, according to one website, there are 667 (ironic) individual sins mentioned in the Bible, and I don't see how we could ever abstain from committing at least some of them on a daily basis. Sure, there is the verse which says we are liars if we claim to be without sin, but there is also the verse that says to be "perfect." In my studies, I came to believe firmly in Lordship salvation. If you don't treat Jesus as Lord, lose your life for him, manifest works & fruit, overcome habitual sin, etc, you won't make it to heaven. And making it to heaven must be "hard," else more than only a select "few" would make the trip.

There are lots of places in the Bible where verses seem contradictory, and they are addressing our very salvation - the most important thing possible. To me, salvation is not "clear" by any means, and I think that is evidenced by all the different views on what all must be done to attain salvation. Some will say that this is due to people "twisting" scripture for the own gain, but I say, after reading the verses myself, the text is genuinely confusing. Yes, textual criticism and historical study might be able to fix some of these "contradictions," but what is the common layman supposed to do?

I am not trying to start debates here; I promise. I know I write in an argumentative style. It's just because I am so frustrated over the whole thing!

I hold to lordship salvation myself, but I don't take it in an extreme manner like some proponents do. What I think it does mean is that Christians should make an active effort not to sin and to grow in their relationships. What I think it doesn't mean is that God is like a drill sergeant looking to nail us for the slightest infraction. These words from Jesus are helpful:

Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matthew 11:28-29)

This isn't a promise that the Christian life is easy, but to me it demonstrates that salvation itself is not a lofty, unattainable goal.

[Obsidian]

In my studies, I came to believe firmly in Lordship salvation. If you don't treat Jesus as Lord, lose your life for him, manifest works & fruit, overcome habitual sin, etc, you won't make it to heaven. And making it to heaven must be "hard," else more than only a select "few" would make the trip.

A lot more than a few will make the trip. Join the crowd.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 7:9-10
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And Lordship Salvation is false.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Sparko]

It IS a really good argument. I had the thought that maybe instead of trying to focus on so many factors at once, I should just study the historicity of the resurrection. It would get straight to the point and bypass a LOT of lesser things I could research. Does anyone here respect Bart Ehrman for matters such as these? He sure has the prestige and education needed, but I know he is super hostile to Christianity in terms of history.

Have you read "The Case for Christ"? It is not a long book, nor particularly deep, but it is about an atheist who did exactly that, examined the evidence for the reliability of the accounts and evidences for the Resurrection.

[Sparko]

Oh my goodness, I didn't know that was your username. I apologize. I don't really focus on usernames when I read a comment.

Yes, but those are more extreme sins, aren't they? I'd personally have a huge problem if I couldn't merely "look" at girls. I like to admire their beauty, and I am a hardcore romantic, so... I'd be banned from that! And the extreme ordeal is those sins of omission: it's sin if we don't do what we know we ought to, and that would seem to keep me in a frantic frenzy of continual "work."

what? Of course you can look at girls. Unless you are talking about porn, then that is something you should avoid whether you are Christian or not.


You are saved without "work" - from the moment you accept Jesus as your savior you are saved. Forever. You will not be perfect, nor are you expected to be. Part of being a Christian is called "sanctification" - the Holy Spirit works with you and changes you. You will grow as a Christian, and not want to do many of the former things you do now. Think it as maturing. God does all the work, not you.

Philipians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

[Shaney777]

I can certainly see why you wouldn't want me getting involved with any of that. Thank you for the warning. :)

[Shaney777]

I hold to lordship salvation myself, but I don't take it in an extreme manner like some proponents do. What I think it does mean is that Christians should make an active effort not to sin and to grow in their relationships. What I think it doesn't mean is that God is like a drill sergeant looking to nail us for the slightest infraction. These words from Jesus are helpful:

Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matthew 11:28-29)

This isn't a promise that the Christian life is easy, but to me it demonstrates that salvation itself is not a lofty, unattainable goal.

The verse you posted does seem to balance things out a bit. And I don't think it would be practical for anyone to live like the idea I have of LS. :)

[Shaney777]

A lot more than a few will make the trip. Join the crowd.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 7:9-10
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And Lordship Salvation is false.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

These verses do seem to suggest that LS is false, but what do you make of Matthew 7:13-14?

[Shaney777]

Have you read "The Case for Christ"? It is not a long book, nor particularly deep, but it is about an atheist who did exactly that, examined the evidence for the reliability of the accounts and evidences for the Resurrection.

My pastor told me about the movie (I think?), and he wanted me to watch it. I'll check out the book. Thanks!

[Shaney777]

what? Of course you can look at girls. Unless you are talking about porn, then that is something you should avoid whether you are Christian or not.


You are saved without "work" - from the moment you accept Jesus as your savior you are saved. Forever. You will not be perfect, nor are you expected to be. Part of being a Christian is called "sanctification" - the Holy Spirit works with you and changes you. You will grow as a Christian, and not want to do many of the former things you do now. Think it as maturing. God does all the work, not you.

Philipians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

I'm not sure if I "lust" when I look at cute girls. *shrugs*

And I suppose I had a tough time "growing" in Christ when I was younger. I still wanted to do things that I shouldn't. All I know is that it wasn't a true conversion.

[Obsidian]

These verses do seem to suggest that LS is false, but what do you make of Matthew 7:13-14?

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

He was saying that, at that point in time, people were very confused about religion. Even though today we have made some progress, there is a sense in which the narrowness is still true. But it won't always be true.

Revelation 21:10-26
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: on the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. . . . And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The same metaphor is used, but without all the narrowness. I believe that these passages are referring to historical developments, where Christianity becomes more widely accepted.

Isaiah 35:7-8
And the parched ground shall become a pool,
and the thirsty land springs of water:
in the habitation of dragons, where each lay,
shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
And an highway shall be there, and a way,
and it shall be called The way of holiness;
the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those:
the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

[Cerebrum123]

These verses do seem to suggest that LS is false, but what do you make of Matthew 7:13-14?

I know you were asking Obsidian, but I see them as saying that you have to follow Jesus Christ, and not one of the many other religions out there. Jesus compared Himself to a gate, and a way(path). He also said He was the only way to the Father. This is basically a refutation of views like "all paths lead to God".

[The Remonstrant]

I can't escape the belief that I've made an error in reasoning somewhere. Or maybe I've missed sources and haven't investigated all there is. There's simply too much relying on me being right about this. This decision is important beyond comprehension[.] I think... I'm just so overwhelmed with the sheer amount of information on it all. It's like... I need to be INCREDIBLY convinced to become a Christian since it requires such a sacrifice. You basically can't do a lot of things that you want anymore... It's a whole new, radical life of servanthood. It's the furthest thing from easy, and I am the laziest person ever.

justification), but the impartation of a new nature as well (regeneration