Originally posted by apostoli
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Must One Believe the Doctrine of the Trinity in Order to be Saved?
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Last edited by 37818; 04-05-2014, 02:23 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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I will be going back to answer other comments . . .
Originally posted by apostoli View PostIt is good we finally found agreement on something. However, your KJV quotation of John 3:13 causes some concern. A significant number of translations render "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man". The difference comes down to manuscript evidence, both have major support. However, the first advocates phantasm, a major problem in the early church (ie: Jesus was not God in the flesh, but a mere simulation, not real in any real sense).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostNot just children on that one. Mind you, what people will say under duress and what they believe may not match well.
What I consider an interesting, if not amusing, personal experience: I was about eight years old when I made my first holy communion. My mum was quite a severe fanatic (apparently she intended to become a nun before she met my father). Anyway, when I had my first holy communion I had a severe physical reaction, which my mother initially interpreted as me being filled with the Holy Spirit (my mother wasn't particularly bright). After a time, and the recurrence of my reactions to accepting the host my mother took me to the priest (well I just might have been Satan possessed and what I was experiencing was Satan's rejection of Christ), and he told her to take me to the doctor. Turned out I had a food allergy to gluten.
The relevance: Parents are not always right, and might be self deceived. Problem: Parents have a tendency to try to force on children their own convictions. Solution: ???
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere is no doubt that the Son of God is. And that He is often called the "only begotten." At issue is the fact that nowhere does the holy scripture suggest that the Son of God became the Son of God at any time. Being that He always was the Son of God. [Eternal Sonship. Isaiah 9:6 so implies.] Since "begotten" refers to a time, He was not begotten in order to become the Son of God. Now the term "begotten" is in fact used referring to God's Son. "Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee," from the second Psalm. He was already the Son prior to being "begotten." And it is a prophecy of His bodily resurrection (Acts 13:33).
Theology is a complex matter. To argue appropriately you need to look at all the angles...not just focus on some arbitrary personal obsession...
ps: "Begotten" does not refer to a time but to an event!!!
pss: If you investigated Jewish custom/tradition you'd find out that there were numerous "rebirths" a person experienced during his lifetime. This is why Nicodemus was so confused by Jesus' words in John 3. Nic had experienced all the rebirths (to be reborn) that were open to him. Not being of the royal line he was precluded from becoming the king of Israel.
Now a range of heresies popped up in the first century and second century. These all viewed Jesus as just a man especially endowed with the Holy Spirit. So these guys interpretation of "begotten" was in terms of acquisition - thus God acquired the son either at his birth, baptism or resurrection. These three views and the Arian view, and your view would have the son being not a son but an acquisition, an employee/slave...Last edited by apostoli; 04-05-2014, 10:21 PM.
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Originally posted by apostoliBased on 37818's previous excursions into a range of Heresies, I assume he holds that John 3:13 is telling us that the Son simultaneously resided in heaven and on earth (though seeing he says he admits to the teaching of Chalcedon = that the Son is a singular hypostasis (person) who possesses two physes, that might be an unfair observation of mine).
And for the record, I agree with 37818 that Jesus was probably not the Son of God until his incarnation. Call me a tritheist if you want. I don't care. Whether it's true or false, the eternal sonship is not found in the Bible.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIn my opinion, it's the Chalcedon people who tend to be most likely to promote the idea that Jesus was "omnipresent" even while on earth. I personally think that concept is stupid.
Originally posted by Obsidian View PostAnd for the record, I agree with 37818 that Jesus was probably not the Son of God until his incarnation. Call me a tritheist if you want. I don't care. Whether it's true or false, the eternal sonship is not found in the Bible.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostCall me a tritheist if you want. I don't care. Whether it's true or false, the eternal sonship is not found in the Bible.
you're asserting Christ was only given the title, "Son of God" when He was born? I'm pretty sure (not really, I'm positive) scripture is clear that the only thing Christ became through physical birth was "Son of Man," but that is because He was subjected to the nature of Man, thus becoming a "was." Remember, He is, John 8:57-58 should help you understand, Abraham rejoiced to see the days of the Son of God, not the days of "something/someone" that was to "be/become", rather the Lord who is, "I Am."
37818:
There is no doubt that the Son of God is. And that He is often called the "only begotten." At issue is the fact that nowhere does the holy scripture suggest that the Son of God became the Son of God at any time. Being that He always was the Son of God. [Eternal Sonship. Isaiah 9:6 so implies.] Since "begotten" refers to a time, He was not begotten in order to become the Son of God. Now the term "begotten" is in fact used referring to God's Son. "Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee," from the second Psalm. He was already the Son prior to being "begotten." And it is a prophecy of His bodily resurrection (Acts 13:33).
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe church at large for over past 1800 years has used the "version" of John which as the longer reading until the 19th century.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostOver 99% of the manuscripts of John has that reading.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo according to all the modern versions which omit this reading the church at large was wrong for over 1400 years.
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Hi alll,
I'm being admitted to hospital today, so you may not hear from me for a while. If you never hear from me again, it is because I am dead.
I hold to Luther's view that until the second coming, the dead (good or bad), rest in peace, then comes the judgement...I'm faced with my judgement, and am ready for it. Are you?
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostHi alll,
I'm being admitted to hospital today, so you may not hear from me for a while. If you never hear from me again, it is because I am dead.
I hold to Luther's view that until the second coming, the dead (good or bad), rest in peace, then comes the judgement...I'm faced with my judgement, and am ready for it. Are you?
you will be back to read this. That God will use this event for your good.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by IamLivesOr are you just being so overly critical that
you're asserting Christ was only given the title, "Son of God" when He was born?
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostYes. And I think that solution puts this whole "begotten (but not made) before eternity" business to rest.Last edited by 37818; 04-07-2014, 02:20 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Obsidian View Post. . .
And for the record, I agree with 37818 that Jesus was probably not the Son of God until his incarnation. Call me a tritheist if you want. I don't care. Whether it's true or false, the eternal sonship is not found in the Bible.
". . . the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -- John 1:14.
"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, . . . " -- 1 John 4:19.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by apostoliOriginally posted by Obsidian View PostIn my opinion, it's the Chalcedon people who tend to be most likely to promote the idea that Jesus was "omnipresent" even while on earth. I personally think that concept is stupid.
And for the record, I agree with 37818 that Jesus was probably not the Son of God until his incarnation. Call me a tritheist if you want. I don't care. Whether it's true or false, the eternal sonship is not found in the Bible.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by ApostoliProverbs 30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
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