Pope Francis: Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

[Adrift]

except the mormons change a lot more than the name, they change the facts and nature of "Goeffrey" - They say God was a man, that Jesus is his physical son, because God had sex with Mary, and that we are his spiritual children because he has sex with a Mother God in heaven and we can become Gods just like him. That is more like my analogy where George is not even a man but a black woman who has an entirely different life and the only similarity is the name. That is what both Islam and Mormonism do. The God that they worship is nothing like the God of the bible.

God did not start their religions, Satan did. God did start Judaism and Christianity. So how can a religion started by Satan be worshiping the one true God?

First of all, most Mormon lay people don't know anything about these facts. They believe that they believe in a god very much like most Christians. And really you're just repeating your previous argument here. I see no reason to assume that just because satan presented a distorted conception of god to a cult leader that means that the conception is not referring to exactly what it is...a distorted conception of the actual one true God. Are they referring to the actual one true God? Yes. It is simply a distorted conception. Are Oneness Pentecostals worshipping a completely and radically different god from that of orthodox believers? No, of course not. They simply have a deeply flawed understanding of who God is, and with a bit of education on our part, and humility on their part, they can be walked back from their heretical conception of God. Telling them that they don't worship the same God at all is more likely to build walls than bridges, and it's not the truth anyways.

[Adrift]

If they come to my house I don't let them in.

I have plenty of other opportunities to tell people about Christ crucified without inviting Jw's and Mormons in when they knock on my door.

What do you feel about those Christians who do let them into their house? A number of Christians here have talked extensively about sharing the gospel in their home with Mormons who've come knocking. Do you believe that they were disobeying the Bible to do so?

[Sparko]

First of all, most Mormon lay people don't know anything about these facts. They believe that they believe in a god very much like most Christians. And really you're just repeating your previous argument here. I see no reason to assume that just because satan presented a distorted conception of god to a cult leader that means that the conception is not referring to exactly what it is...a distorted conception of the actual one true God. Are they referring to the actual one true God? Yes. It is simply a distorted conception. Are Oneness Pentecostals worshipping a completely and radically different god from that of orthodox believers? No, of course not. They simply have a deeply flawed understanding of who God is, and with a bit of education on our part, and humility on their part, they can be walked back from their heretical conception of God. Telling them that they don't worship the same God at all is more likely to build walls than bridges, and it's not the truth anyways.

What the heck Adrift. So someone can worship something totally different than the God of the bible and as long as they THINK they are worshiping the God of the bible, they are? That's frikkin insane.

So if I started a cult and told everyone that I was the God of Abraham and they should ignore the bible and only listen to me, and I taught them completely different things to believe about God's nature and how to be saved, you would come along and say they were worshiping the real God because they believed that I was the God of Abraham?

That's what you are saying here.

No when you were in the cult you did not worship the true God. You worshiped a false God created by your cult leader. Did he have a some superficial similarities to the real thing? sure. But the result was a lie, a false God.

Here is an interesting article from a former muslim who says that the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity and makes pretty much the same points we have in this thread and even addresses some of the points you try to use.

With this desire for love in mind, I turn now to the question: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God? Like all good questions, the answer is more complex than most want, but I am confident of my position: Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, but given the complexity of the matter we all ought to stop demonizing those who disagree with us.

I should start by saying this: for years after leaving Islam and accepting Jesus as Lord, I believed that Muslims worshiped the same God as Christians but that they were simply wrong about what He is like and what He has done. After all, I had been taught as a young Muslim to worship the God who created Adam and Eve, who rescued Noah from the flood, who promised Abraham a vast progeny, who helped Moses escape Egypt, who made the Virgin Mary great with child, who sent Jesus into the world, who helped the disciples overcome, and who is still sovereign today. Is that not the God of the Bible?

continued at:

http://rzim.org/global-blog/do-musli...-the-same-god/

[mossrose]

What do you feel about those Christians who do let them into their house? A number of Christians here have talked extensively about sharing the gospel in their home with Mormons who've come knocking. Do you believe that they were disobeying the Bible to do so?

Perhaps.

[Adrift]

What the heck Adrift. So someone can worship something totally different than the God of the bible and as long as they THINK they are worshiping the God of the bible, they are? That's frikkin insane.

We aren't talking about people who are worshiping something totally different from the God of the Bible.

So if I started a cult and told everyone that I was the God of Abraham and they should ignore the bible and only listen to me, and I taught them completely different things to believe about God's nature and how to be saved, you would come along and say they were worshiping the real God because they believed that I was the God of Abraham?

You realize that Mormons do not ignore the Bible, right? That it's part of their holy canon.

That's what you are saying here.

No. Not even close.

No when you were in the cult you did not worship the true God. You worshiped a false God created by your cult leader. Did he have a some superficial similarities to the real thing? sure. But the result was a lie, a false God.

Wouldn't I, of all people, know who I thought I was worshiping then, and who I believe I'm worshiping now, or do you now doubt my claim to being a Christian?

Here is an interesting article from a former muslim who says that the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity and makes pretty much the same points we have in this thread and even addresses some of the points you try to use.

With this desire for love in mind, I turn now to the question: Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God? Like all good questions, the answer is more complex than most want, but I am confident of my position: Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, but given the complexity of the matter we all ought to stop demonizing those who disagree with us.

I should start by saying this: for years after leaving Islam and accepting Jesus as Lord, I believed that Muslims worshiped the same God as Christians but that they were simply wrong about what He is like and what He has done. After all, I had been taught as a young Muslim to worship the God who created Adam and Eve, who rescued Noah from the flood, who promised Abraham a vast progeny, who helped Moses escape Egypt, who made the Virgin Mary great with child, who sent Jesus into the world, who helped the disciples overcome, and who is still sovereign today. Is that not the God of the Bible?

continued at:

http://rzim.org/global-blog/do-musli...-the-same-god/

I was already aware of that article, but thanks. I think he makes an interesting point when he states "Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, but given the complexity of the matter we all ought to stop demonizing those who disagree with us."

[Adrift]

Perhaps.

Wow.

[Sparko]

We aren't talking about people who are worshiping something totally different from the God of the Bible.



You realize that Mormons do not ignore the Bible, right? That it's part of their holy canon.



No. Not even close.



Wouldn't I, of all people, know who I thought I was worshiping then, and who I believe I'm worshiping now, or do you now doubt my claim to being a Christian?



I was already aware of that article, but thanks. I think he makes an interesting point when he states "Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, but given the complexity of the matter we all ought to stop demonizing those who disagree with us."

I am not demonizing you. I just think you are frikkin insane

Mormons use their teachings to completely change the meaning and context of the bible. They interpret the bible through their book of mormon and extraneous teachings. The God of Mormonism is a glorified man, one of an infinite series. This is not the first universe, nor will it be the last. Everyone gets their own when they become a God.

Now just because not every mormon is aware of those teaching doesn't change the fact that the God that mormonism teaches and worships is not the God of the bible. If any do worship the God of the bible it is through pure luck (or the holy spirit acting on them) and not because they are worshiping the God of Mormonism

Same with Islam. Sure I think the holy spirit works on muslims and causes many to convert. That doesn't mean that the god muslims worship is the true God. It can't be.

Now the God the Arab Christians worship, who they call Allah also, IS the God of the bible. "Allah" simply means "god" so it can refer to any god. But Allah of Islam is not the true God. It is a false God.

[Leonhard]

Which is the reason that I would say modern Jews don't worship the same God as Christians.

Like Adrift said, this is an interesting admission. It's consistent, so I respect you holding it, though I disagree with it.

There is as great a difference between a Wahabi Muslim and a Sunni Muslim, as there is between, a Baptist and a Roman Catholic. I would not dare tell either group how they ought to read their own scriptures when they read it differently. An exegetical discussion can be had, but I think it's foolish to do evangelism by telling a Muslim that he's not being a proper Wahabi. Textual criticism, moral argumentation, etc... those are perfectly valid and have some use in discussions.

Yet you're fine with saying stuff like this.

That depends on what you mean. From my perspective, no one outside of the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church is "true Christians." That's if you define the term in the narrowest sense of those people explicitly having the faith that Christ taught to the apostles, and that the Church Fathers themselves would have considered Christians.

To me, your second reply I'm quoting from this thread basically says that there is no correct interpretation of said scriptures for either Muslims or Christians. Now, I don't think that's what you are intending to say, that's the only way I can read the above. In fact, it doesn't square at all with your own comment about "true Christians".

You're right, that's the way you read the above. I didn't mean that there's no such thing as a True Christian. Frankly, I'm not sure why you're getting that from those paragraphs, but if you need me to dispell the idea, then yes.

Since Islam is a false religion, the notion of a 'true Muslim' seems a bit of an oxymoron to me. Islam is a heretical cult. As such there's no true anything it can be.

In fact, I'd go so far as consider it a heretical Christian cult, that went on to become a world religion. It has a new prophet, it tends towards the same heretical tendencies that many Christian personality cults tend towards (denial of the trinity being one). Its fastings and disciplines are borrowed heavily from what the Desert Fathers did. This is more or less how the Christian theologians in the medieval ages saw Islam. I see no reason to view them differently.

If a Muslim isn't willing to take their own scriptures seriously, then I have no reason to expect them to take the Bible seriously in a discussion.

There's a difference between someone interested in exegesis, and someone who isn't. That's true. However, I'm not sure what a 'True Islam' is, and what I could get from presenting it to a Muslim. I could point out problems that I see morally with some things in the Quran and Hadiths, there is genuinely a place for historical-critical apologetics of the Quran as well.

I'm not dismissing Christian apologetical treatments of Islam if that's what you're accusing me off.

Besides, I think the best way to get a Muslim to leave Islam is for them to see what the Koran, and Hadith say. Especially since the Koran commands Muslims to seriously inquire about the Torah and Injeel(or Gospel). Get them to seriously look at the Bible as a whole, and then they will be able to see why the Koran is false.

I wish you luck with such a project.

[Adrift]

I am not demonizing you. I just think you are frikkin insane

Mormons use their teachings to completely change the meaning and context of the bible. They interpret the bible through their book of mormon and extraneous teachings. The God of Mormonism is a glorified man, one of an infinite series. This is not the first universe, nor will it be the last. Everyone gets their own when they become a God.

Now just because not every mormon is aware of those teaching doesn't change the fact that the God that mormonism teaches and worships is not the God of the bible. If any do worship the God of the bible it is through pure luck (or the holy spirit acting on them) and not because they are worshiping the God of Mormonism

Same with Islam. Sure I think the holy spirit works on muslims and causes many to convert. That doesn't mean that the god muslims worship is the true God. It can't be.

Now the God the Arab Christians worship, who they call Allah also, IS the God of the bible. "Allah" simply means "god" so it can refer to any god. But Allah of Islam is not the true God. It is a false God.

Ok, well, I believe this may just be a topic where we're going to have to agree to disagree for now. Maybe some day I'll change my mind on the subject, but I don't think that day will be today.

[noikodee]

But indian christians say deva/bhagwan for God but that doesnt mean they worship hindu gods.When arab christians say allah they refer to the father son and holy spirit same way indian christians say deva to refer to the father son and holy spirit. Just like allah is word for god in arab land same way deva is a word for god in the land of india.Both are pagan words used to refer to true god.

[Leonhard]

I would like to note though since anyone showing liberal tendencies these days is shot down, that I do consider the Quran a vile product of dark forces, and I pray that all Muslims everywhere see the light and convert to Christianity.

[Leonhard]

Just like allah is word for god in arab land same way deva is a word for god in the land of india.Both are pagan words used to refer to true god.

Egyptian Coptics call God Allah in their liturgies.

[noikodee]

Egyptian Coptics call God Allah in their liturgies.

But they refer to the father son and holy spirit just like indians christians say deva. The word itself has no worth if it is said for a false god.If God word is used for false gods it is wrong.

[Sparko]

Ok, well, I believe this may just be a topic where we're going to have to agree to disagree for now. Maybe some day I'll change my mind on the subject, but I don't think that day will be today.

I have come to the same conclusion so at least we can agree on that.

My stance is that Islam (and mormonism, etc) believes in a false God that may have been based in part on the real God.

[mossrose]

I have come to the same conclusion so at least we can agree on that.

My stance is that Islam (and mormonism, etc) believes in a false God that may have been based in part on the real God.

There is only one religion in the world. It is ALL man-made. It is all false. It is all satanically influenced. It is all works-based.

Then there is Christianity.