Knowing for sure one is going to heaven

[Obsidian]

It's like I said: Every legalist ultimately has trouble with that verse. He demeans the law of God. Every legalist has to substitute his own law in place of God's. Every legalist becomes a gnostic.

[Truthseeker]

It's like I said: Every legalist has to substitute his own law in place of God's. Every legalist becomes a gnostic.

I don't think I see how these 2 statements follow.

[footwasher]

That is clear as mud.

No one was ever saved by Law under the Law. Everyone who was justified, even while under the covenant of the Law, were all justified by God's grace.

You say people were saved by grace under the Covenant of Law. So why, under the Covenant of Grace, does Paul say:

Romans 6:14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

IOW, if grace was available under the Old Covenant of Law, why was it called the Covenant of Law? And what was the difference made by the New Covenant of Grace?

[37818]

You say people were saved by grace under the Covenant of Law. So why, under the Covenant of Grace, does Paul say:

Romans 6:14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Under the Law had a purpose,
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." -- Romans 3:19.
And,
"But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." -- 1 Timoty 1:9-11.

So remember,
". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
" -- Romans 4:5-8.

". . . For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. " -- 2 Corinthians 5:21.

IOW, if grace was available under the Old Covenant of Law, why was it called the Covenant of Law? And what was the difference made by the New Covenant of Grace?

Understand the Law has its purpose. Like a mirror to show the dirt on our faces. The promise of grace preceded the Law by 430 years, as was give to Abram.

". . . Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. . . . And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. . . . " -- Genesis 12:2, 7.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." -- Galatians 3:16, 17.

". . . and to thy seed . . . " -- Genesis 13:15.

[footwasher]

Under the Law had a purpose,
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." -- Romans 3:19.
And,
"But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." -- 1 Timoty 1:9-11.

So remember,
". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
" -- Romans 4:5-8.

". . . For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. " -- 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Understand the Law has its purpose. Like a mirror to show the dirt on our faces. The promise of grace preceded the Law by 430 years, as was give to Abram.

". . . Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. . . . And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. . . . " -- Genesis 12:2, 7.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." -- Galatians 3:16, 17.

". . . and to thy seed . . . " -- Genesis 13:15.

What is the difference being under grace as compared to being under law?

[Obsidian]

Being under the law was a pharisaical heresy (except when performed by Jesus). Being under grace was the reality that true believers understood. The law was never intended to bring eternal life. That is the difference.

[footwasher]

Being under the law was a pharisaical heresy (except when performed by Jesus). Being under grace was the reality that true believers understood. The law was never intended to bring eternal life. That is the difference.

38718 claims Abraham received grace, which you equate to eternal life. Did Abraham receive eternal life?

[Obsidian]

Of course. How does that contradict what I said? The law didn't even exist at that time. There was no possible way for someone to imagine that keeping it warranted eternal life.

[footwasher]

Of course. How does that contradict what I said? The law didn't even exist at that time. There was no possible way for someone to imagine that keeping it warranted eternal life.

Then why does Luke write this:

Luke 7:28 "I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

[37818]

38718 claims Abraham received grace, which you equate to eternal life. Did Abraham receive eternal life?

Not in the sense of NT saints. Abraham was not born again as such. When Abraham died he entered the realm of the dead, the nether world, Sheol, Hades, Hell (the upper compartment) where all the OT saved went. (see Luke 16:19-31, Psalm 86:13, Deuteronomy 32:22.) When Jesus ascended into the heaven of heavens to be our mediator, He took all the OT saints to heaven at that time (Ephesians 4:8-10). [This interpretation is my understanding on this. As it was some of them were risen from the dead too, at the time of Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 27:51, 52).]

[Obsidian]

I disagree. Abraham clearly had eternal life, and I also disagree that he went anywhere other than heaven. As far as what Footwasher's verse means, I am not certain because it is a vague verse. Honestly, I can think of at least two interpretations, and I am just not sure, which is why I didn't answer.

[footwasher]

[Obsidian]

Where does any of that say that Abraham lacked eternal life, or did not go to heaven?

[37818]

I disagree. Abraham clearly had eternal life, and I also disagree that he went anywhere other than heaven. As far as what Footwasher's verse means, I am not certain because it is a vague verse. Honestly, I can think of at least two interpretations, and I am just not sure, which is why I didn't answer.

Abraham did not have eternal life in the same way we as Christians have eternal life today.

First note, Abraham was in Hades the upper compartment. Not heaven (Luke 16:19-31).
Second note, Abraham had not yet received the promise that we as born again Christians receive (Hebrews 11:39, Luke 24:49).
Third, Abraham was not dead to God (Luke 20:37, 38).

Abraham was justified and was a saved person, and has eternal life. Before the ascension of Christ, was in Hades, and now in Heaven. Where we know when we die we go to Heaven to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8).

If you have a better understanding than my understanding explain on. Thanks.

[37818]

God saves:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The types, stages of salvation , listed are , washing, sanctification and justification.

Agreed it is God who does the saving. The washing is by God's word. (John 15:3, John 17:17. Ephesians 5:26. Romans 10:17. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.) Sanctification precedes belief in the truth. (James 1:18.)