Pop preachers and their heretical beliefs

[NorrinRadd]

A bit more background info, just FWIW.

Here is the current Statement of Faith from the church I attended ca. 1984-'95. I don't recall it being nearly so detailed back then. The current one appears to be cloned from the AG without attribution.

At the time (I don't know the current situation), that church was under the umbrella of the IAOGI (which is quite distinct from the "regular" AG). Here is IAOGI's current SoF. My vague recollection is that back then, it was a bit more explicitly Pentecostal, but I could easily be mistaken. (Most members had no idea the church belonged to anything even remotely "denomination-like." I only knew because I was an usher, greeter, and janitor, and knew a little bit of the behind-the-scenes stuff.)

In those days, I at first didn't know Word-Faith was any different from "regular" Pentecostalism. But then the local AG got a new temporary pastor who was very much a devotee of Jimmy Swaggart and Dave Wilkerson. My church featured "comtemporary" worship, and most of the band members were also members of the local Christian rock band Rama. (I think a few people on here might be familiar with Tom Milnes from Apologetix; the bio is outdated. He was a singer and lead guitarist in Rama back then.) The church also had close unofficial ties to a local Christian coffeehouse where Rama and other Christian bands played. The Faith teaching and Christian Rock associations brought a lot of flak from the local AG back then. (The AG has officially opposed "Positive Confession" since 1980.)

In those days, a few times a year we had combined services with the Christian Assembly across the street, and had close relations with another one about 40 minutes away. The current CA SoF can be found here.

[tabibito]

A bit more background info, just FWIW.

Here is the current Statement of Faith from the church I attended ca. 1984-'95. I don't recall it being nearly so detailed back then. The current one appears to be cloned from the AG without attribution.

Item 1 in that statement of faith:

1. The Scriptures Inspired

The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, are verbally inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct.

• 2 Timothy 3:15-17 [KJV/NIV]
• Sometimes a Koine Greek clause will omit a verb because it would repeat the verb in a prior clause, though not necessarily with the same conjugation. The process is not unknown in English, e.g.

He goes to the same club as I. ... (go to)

2 Tim 3:16 is an adjectival phrase, "is's" tossed in not only change the phrase into a sentence, but change the intent of what is written.
The word translated as "all" is pas; "every" is an equally valid translation. Also valid, "scripture" could be written as "the scripture."

15 from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

The core sentence is "From childhood, you have known the sacred writings: every scripture inspired by God."
It does not take a whole lot of investigation to show that not everything in the Bible is inspired-by-God scripture. Paul even says explicitly that one or two comments he makes are not from God.

• 1 Thessalonians 2:13 [KJV/NIV]

13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Geh?! It doesn't even address topic of inspiration of scripture. It's about how the audience had initially accepted preaching.

• 2 Peter 1:21 [KJV/NIV]

2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

This is not about Scripture - it is about prophecy. Scripture simply defines which prophecy is referred to - that which is found in scripture.

Calling on these to bolster the precept that the Bible is infallible is pure clutching-at-straws eisegesis.

[NorrinRadd]

Item 1 in that statement of faith:

1. The Scriptures Inspired

The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, are verbally inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct.

• 2 Timothy 3:15-17 [KJV/NIV]
• Sometimes a Koine Greek clause will omit a verb because it would repeat the verb in a prior clause, though not necessarily with the same conjugation. The process is not unknown in English, e.g.

He goes to the same club as I. ... (go to)

2 Tim 3:16 is an adjectival phrase, "is's" tossed in not only change the phrase into a sentence, but change the intent of what is written.
The word translated as "all" is pas; "every" is an equally valid translation. Also valid, "scripture" could be written as "the scripture."

15 from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

The core sentence is "From childhood, you have known the sacred writings: every scripture inspired by God."
It does not take a whole lot of investigation to show that not everything in the Bible is inspired-by-God scripture. Paul even says explicitly that one or two comments he makes are not from God.

• 1 Thessalonians 2:13 [KJV/NIV]

13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Geh?! It doesn't even address topic of inspiration of scripture. It's about how the audience had initially accepted preaching.

• 2 Peter 1:21 [KJV/NIV]

2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

This is not about Scripture - it is about prophecy. Scripture simply defines which prophecy is referred to - that which is found in scripture.

Calling on these to bolster the precept that the Bible is infallible is pure clutching-at-straws eisegesis.

I'll see your infallibility and raise you a "closed Canon." I don't think it's exactly a trivial matter to prove either from Scripture itself.

[tabibito]

I'll see your infallibility and raise you a "closed Canon." I don't think it's exactly a trivial matter to prove either from Scripture itself.

I don't see that either is even remotely demonstrable from scripture itself.

[NorrinRadd]

Out of curiosity, I'm working through the thread from the beginning. I don't recall doing so in the past, and the Thread Search apparently on works on contents of posts, not authors, so I can't easily check.

I would hesitate to call these people suckers. They are generally highly uneducated people mired in poverty (with many chronic ailments) who will give their last dollar to anyone providing hope from the Bible that they were raised to believe has authority. Undoubtedly they go and listen to these men for motivation to live another day and to escape the hell that characterizes their lives through "spiritual ecstasy". Charlatans or well-meaning people (like Joyce Meyer) take advantage and/or perpetuate the problem.

It doesn't take the grace of God to prevent people from believing lies and nonsense like the teachings of charlatans, just an education.

Based on my experience, I have to say your description is mistaken. The WF church I attended ca. '84-'95 included in its 200-ish regular attenders a few "food stamps" people at the low end, owners of a local art gallery and at least one physician at the top end, and about everything in between. I'd say most were "middle class," and I don't think the breakdown was *much* different from most other churches in town.

I think a couple of other WF churches in the area probably tilted *slightly* more toward lower-middle, while a more recent one closer to Pittsburgh seems to have fairly upscale membership.

[NorrinRadd]

Look no further.

Well, since that's from "Lutheran Satire," I'm going to have to link to my personal favorite Luther site.

[tabibito]

Comments from 7 years agone? Oh well.

What do people think about the following quote:

We should shrink in horror from the idea that God actually died on the cross. The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ

With the follow up leading to this gem citing Sproul.

In fact, two such heresies related to this problem arose in the early centuries of the church: theopassianism and patripassianism. The first of these, theopassianism, teaches that God Himself suffered death on the cross.

This "heresy," Theopassinianism, is found at a number of points in both the Old and New Testaments. It was God's sacrifice of himself - not of someone else. What we don't find in the Bible is a "two natures of Jesus of Nazareth."

[mossrose]

Hurricane coming to Louisiana and environs........

[The Melody Maker]

Hurricane coming to Louisiana and environs........

Assuming they tried it again, their attempts did nothing...
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...-without-power

[mossrose]

Assuming they tried it again, their attempts did nothing...
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...-without-power

Yuh. It's so tragic, and so many people are falling for their baloney.

[rogue06]

Assuming they tried it again, their attempts did nothing...
https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...-without-power

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

smiley fingers crossed.gifWell I guess third time's the charm

[mossrose]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

smiley fingers crossed.gifWell I guess third time's the charm

Somebody somewhere probably did try it, we just haven't heard about it yet. They don't seem to learn from their previous failures.

Just like Bill Johnson of Bethel in Redding California didn't learn a thing from his failure to stop the wildfires a year (or two?) ago, that took out the town of Paradise and a whole lot else.

Clouds without water, indeed.

[rogue06]

Somebody somewhere probably did try it, we just haven't heard about it yet. They don't seem to learn from their previous failures.

Just like Bill Johnson of Bethel in Redding California didn't learn a thing from his failure to stop the wildfires a year (or two?) ago, that took out the town of Paradise and a whole lot else.

Clouds without water, indeed.

Wasn't it Pat Robertson who once claimed to redirect a hurricane through his prayer?

[NorrinRadd]

Wasn't it Pat Robertson who once claimed to redirect a hurricane through his prayer?

He's not really a "Word-Faith" guy, but yeah, he was the first who came to mind. Until Mossy's post, I'd never heard of anyone else making those claims. His claim was along the lines that Virginia Beach was frequently hit by major storms, but that after he prayed against one, it was never struck again.

[Christianbookworm]

Hurricanes are important for mixing up the ocean. So, don't think that prayer would be successful.