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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining "Christian" or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining "Christian" or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Originally posted by mossrose View Post
-- How is the statement around 7:40 any more "heresy" than 1 John 4:17?
I don't *like* Furtick saying that. I think it's stupid exegesis of Exodus 3. But how this guy pulling out that bit and labeling it "heresy" shows he's just a heresy hunter.
In my previous reply to the original Furtick post, I included these:
We are "in" Christ -- Rom 8:1-2; 2 Cor. 3:14; 5:17; etc.
We are "in" Him -- 1 Cor. 1:5; 2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 2:11; etc.
We are "with" him -- Rom. 6:4-8
We are heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ -- Rom. 8:17
We are royalty -- Rom. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6, 5:10
We are seated with Christ -- Eph. 2:6, 1:20
We are partakers of the divine nature -- 2 Pet. 1:4
Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:38) and we have an anointing of the Holy One (1 John 2:20).
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) and we are born of the Spirit (John 3:5-8).
Jesus was(is) the beloved Son of God (Matt. 3:17; Mark 9:7; Luke 1:35, 3:22; etc.) and we are children of God (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 3:26; 1 John 3:1-2).
Jesus called the Father "Abba" (Matt. 14:36) and so do we (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
Jesus was (uniquely) born of God (John 3:16, 18) and we are born of God (John 1:12-13), born from above (John 3:3, 7).
Jesus calls us His brothers and sisters (Heb. 2:11).
The Spirit was upon Jesus (Luke 4:18) and provided Him power (4:14). The Spirit and power are upon us (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; 2:4-39).
I wonder if Justin also considers those to be "heresy."
Around 10:00-10:30 -- I take it this guy doesn't believe the gifts of the Spirit are operative today. I hope he isn't so foolish that he uses that as a framework to judge what constitutes "heresy."
Funny that Justin got so bent out shape about Furtick's tight shirt in that ONE clip. In most or all of the others, Furtick is wearing big, loose clothes.
Around the 18 minute mark -- Justin disqualifies Furtick from teaching and preaching on the basis that he allegedly does not meet the standards of 1 Tim. 3 and Tit. 1. But those are standards for elders / overseers. It is strictly a matter of opinion that *only* elders / overseers can teach and preach. (If he had argued more narrowly that Furtick is not qualified to be a pastor, I'd have less objection.)
Abram and his "stuff" -- No more "coarse jesting" than Paul's remarks about circumcision in Galatians, and no more offensive than the KJV and a few others that use the expression "pisses against the wall."
I wouldn't want to attend Furtick's church. I would not advise anyone else to attend, or to make a practice of imbibing his preaching. But I also would not recommend the kind of church Justin Peters or John MacArthur would approve. Justin likes to toss around allusions to Jude 1:12. I think it's just about as appropriate to link Justin to 2 Tim. 3:5.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I wouldn't want to attend Furtick's church. I would not advise anyone else to attend, or to make a practice of imbibing his preaching. But I also would not recommend the kind of church Justin Peters or John MacArthur would approve. Justin likes to toss around allusions to Jude 1:12. I think it's just about as appropriate to link Justin to 2 Tim. 3:5.
III. Creation
…in keeping with proper hermeneutics, the Bible clearly teaches that God created the world in 6 literal 24 hour days. Adam and Eve were two literal, historical people handmade by God. We completely reject the fallacious arguments of both Darwinistic macro-evolution and theistic evolution, the latter of which is a woefully misguided attempt to make the Bible fit within the parameters of predominant scientific theories. True science always supports the biblical narrative and never contradicts it.
Strike.jpg
VI. Salvation
…salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as recorded in Scripture alone for the glory of God alone. Sinners are totally depraved, meaning, that left to his own fallen nature man has no inherent ability to save himself or even to seek after God (Romans 3:10-11). Salvation, then, is instigated and completed solely by the convicting and regenerative power of His Holy Spirit (John 3:3-7; Titus 3:5) Who grants both genuine faith (Hebrews 12:2) and genuine repentance (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:23-25). He accomplishes this through the instrumentality of the Word of God (John 5:24) as it is read and preached. Though works are wholly unmeritorious for salvation (Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:8-9), when regeneration has been wrought in a person he will exhibit works, or, fruit, of that regeneration (Acts 26:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Ephesians 2:10).
Strike.jpg
XII. Spiritual Gifts
…every person who is regenerated by God’s Holy Spirit is given gifts by the Same. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts among each local body as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11; 18) for the purpose of edifying the local body (Ephesians 4:12; 1 Peter 4:10). There are, broadly speaking, two kinds of gifts: 1. the miraculous (Apostolic) gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues, divine revelation and physical healing and 2. the ministering gifts of prophecy (forth-telling, not foretelling), service, teaching, leading, exhortation, giving, mercy and helps.
The Apostolic gifts are no longer in operation today as evidenced by both the Bible (1 Corinthians 13:8, 12; Galatians 4:13; 1 Timothy 5:23) and the vast majority of the testimony of church history. The function of the Apostolic gifts has already been fulfilled and they are, therefore, unnecessary. The Bible is completely sufficient for the individual believer and corporate body of Christ to know God’s will and obey it. The ministering gifts are still in operation today.
Strike.jpg
Furtick's church looks like the safer option to me.Last edited by tabibito; 08-23-2021, 04:15 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
From Justin Peters Ministries Statement of Faith
III. Creation
…in keeping with proper hermeneutics, the Bible clearly teaches that God created the world in 6 literal 24 hour days. Adam and Eve were two literal, historical people handmade by God. We completely reject the fallacious arguments of both Darwinistic macro-evolution and theistic evolution, the latter of which is a woefully misguided attempt to make the Bible fit within the parameters of predominant scientific theories. True science always supports the biblical narrative and never contradicts it.
Strike.jpg
VI. Salvation
…salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as recorded in Scripture alone for the glory of God alone. Sinners are totally depraved, meaning, that left to his own fallen nature man has no inherent ability to save himself or even to seek after God (Romans 3:10-11). Salvation, then, is instigated and completed solely by the convicting and regenerative power of His Holy Spirit (John 3:3-7; Titus 3:5) Who grants both genuine faith (Hebrews 12:2) and genuine repentance (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:23-25). He accomplishes this through the instrumentality of the Word of God (John 5:24) as it is read and preached. Though works are wholly unmeritorious for salvation (Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:8-9), when regeneration has been wrought in a person he will exhibit works, or, fruit, of that regeneration (Acts 26:20; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Ephesians 2:10).
Strike.jpg
XII. Spiritual Gifts
…every person who is regenerated by God’s Holy Spirit is given gifts by the Same. The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts among each local body as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11; 18) for the purpose of edifying the local body (Ephesians 4:12; 1 Peter 4:10). There are, broadly speaking, two kinds of gifts: 1. the miraculous (Apostolic) gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues, divine revelation and physical healing and 2. the ministering gifts of prophecy (forth-telling, not foretelling), service, teaching, leading, exhortation, giving, mercy and helps.
The Apostolic gifts are no longer in operation today as evidenced by both the Bible (1 Corinthians 13:8, 12; Galatians 4:13; 1 Timothy 5:23) and the vast majority of the testimony of church history. The function of the Apostolic gifts has already been fulfilled and they are, therefore, unnecessary. The Bible is completely sufficient for the individual believer and corporate body of Christ to know God’s will and obey it. The ministering gifts are still in operation today.
Strike.jpg
Furtick's church looks like the safer option to me.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Tentatively agree, pending comparison with the SOF from Furtick's church.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Sorry, but yep, I'm going to do it again.
-- How is the statement around 7:40 any more "heresy" than 1 John 4:17?
I don't *like* Furtick saying that. I think it's stupid exegesis of Exodus 3. But how this guy pulling out that bit and labeling it "heresy" shows he's just a heresy hunter.
In my previous reply to the original Furtick post, I included these:
We are "in" Christ -- Rom 8:1-2; 2 Cor. 3:14; 5:17; etc.
We are "in" Him -- 1 Cor. 1:5; 2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 2:11; etc.
We are "with" him -- Rom. 6:4-8
We are heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ -- Rom. 8:17
We are royalty -- Rom. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6, 5:10
We are seated with Christ -- Eph. 2:6, 1:20
We are partakers of the divine nature -- 2 Pet. 1:4
Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:38) and we have an anointing of the Holy One (1 John 2:20).
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) and we are born of the Spirit (John 3:5-8).
Jesus was(is) the beloved Son of God (Matt. 3:17; Mark 9:7; Luke 1:35, 3:22; etc.) and we are children of God (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 3:26; 1 John 3:1-2).
Jesus called the Father "Abba" (Matt. 14:36) and so do we (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
Jesus was (uniquely) born of God (John 3:16, 18) and we are born of God (John 1:12-13), born from above (John 3:3, 7).
Jesus calls us His brothers and sisters (Heb. 2:11).
The Spirit was upon Jesus (Luke 4:18) and provided Him power (4:14). The Spirit and power are upon us (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; 2:4-39).
I wonder if Justin also considers those to be "heresy."
Around 10:00-10:30 -- I take it this guy doesn't believe the gifts of the Spirit are operative today. I hope he isn't so foolish that he uses that as a framework to judge what constitutes "heresy."
Funny that Justin got so bent out shape about Furtick's tight shirt in that ONE clip. In most or all of the others, Furtick is wearing big, loose clothes.
Around the 18 minute mark -- Justin disqualifies Furtick from teaching and preaching on the basis that he allegedly does not meet the standards of 1 Tim. 3 and Tit. 1. But those are standards for elders / overseers. It is strictly a matter of opinion that *only* elders / overseers can teach and preach. (If he had argued more narrowly that Furtick is not qualified to be a pastor, I'd have less objection.)
Abram and his "stuff" -- No more "coarse jesting" than Paul's remarks about circumcision in Galatians, and no more offensive than the KJV and a few others that use the expression "pisses against the wall."
I wouldn't want to attend Furtick's church. I would not advise anyone else to attend, or to make a practice of imbibing his preaching. But I also would not recommend the kind of church Justin Peters or John MacArthur would approve. Justin likes to toss around allusions to Jude 1:12. I think it's just about as appropriate to link Justin to 2 Tim. 3:5.
On the other hand, Furtick and his ilk seem to need defense from those who, well, defend them.Last edited by mossrose; 08-23-2021, 10:47 PM.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View Post
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
I don't know who he is and what he did with my son!
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI'm not going to argue with any of you in this thread. I believe you are wrong, and you don't like what I'm posting. That's on you, and perhaps the truth hurts a bit when it goes against what you believe.
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't like what you're posting, mossy, because you're mixing dogmatic assertions with an adamant refusal to back them up. You could, perhaps take your last sentence here to heart. I was raised a cessationist - but experience has proven that to be wrong. Truth remains the truth, regardless of whether or not you like it when you hear it.
Indeed, truth DOES remain the truth. And the truth is that these people are false teachers who fleece their followers and undermine their faith with empty promises of wealth and health
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
Comment
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Originally posted by mossrose View Post
On the other hand, Furtick and his old seem to need Defense from those who, well, defend them.
There is simply an acknowledgement that the person complaining about the mote in Furtick's eye has a pole in his own.
That doesn't mean Furtick's preaching isn't cause for concern - which is what NorrinRadd stated.
NorrinRadd said "I wouldn't want to attend Furtick's church. I would not advise anyone else to attend, or to make a practice of imbibing his preaching. But I also would not recommend the kind of church Justin Peters or John MacArthur would approve. Justin likes to toss around allusions to Jude 1:12. I think it's just about as appropriate to link Justin to 2 Tim. 3:5"
And I for one would not have considered that there was cause to question Peters' assessment if it hadn't been for all his nitpicking. Checking Peters' credentials shows that his criticisms are at best a matter of one false preacher slinging mud at another.Last edited by tabibito; 08-23-2021, 10:27 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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I've been metaphorically shooting in both directions for at least 25 years.
For the bottom line, skip past the box. For the details, don't.
From about 1984 to 1994 or 1995 (about age 24 to 34 or 35 on earth, about age 4 to 14 or 15 "in the Lord"), I attended a Full Gospel / Pentecostal church with Word of Faith leanings. The pulpit preaching was generally not "hardcore" WoF, but the book table and tape library were stocked with materials from Rhema and Harrison House. For the first few months of my attendance, before we moved into a "real" church building, we rented meeting space in a local storage facility belonging to R.W. Schambach. About once a year, David Kirkwood (his name back then), a pastor from down near Pittsburgh, visited and taught at a few services. He was my favorite guest-preacher. We also had occasional visits from John Nuzzo, long before he became pastor of a church. Two of our favorite recurring guests were Bishop Silas Owiti and singer/pianist/evangelist Roger Blair. It is literally amazing to me that I can find NO info online about the latter; he was an itinerant singer, pianist, and evangelist most notable for his "laughing in the Spirit" ministry several years before that stuff exploded into international fame in Toronto and Florida. (Well, not "NO" info. I did find this post that I myself wrote on another forum about 14 years ago.)
I read and re-read scores of books by Faith teachers, and listened to many hours of teaching tapes. I also read critical books by Bruce Barron, Dan McConnell, Gordon Fee, B.J. Oropeza, and Hank Hanegraaff. (I never got around to reading the books by Dave Hunt and John MacArthur.) I also read (poorly-attempted) rebuttals by Reid, et al (Seduction?? A Biblical Response) and Bruno (Christianity in Power). And I consumed a few books and tapes by Pat Robertson and Malcolm Smith, and a couple by Vineyard-affiliated authors James White (When the Spirit Comes with Power) and Ken Blue (Authority to Heal).
From fairly early on, I had minor issues with WoF interpretations of a few passages of Scripture, in some cases because the WoF interpretation depended on the KJV and I used the NASB or occasionally NIV. I was young and assumed they generally knew their stuff, so I filed those away. Around the early '90s, things transpired that made me aware that a couple of the top WoF luminaries had spoken blatant falsehoods "by the Spirit." That motivated me to carefully scrutinize WoF teachings and sayings, and interpretations of many passages of Scripture over the next few years. At the same time I was doing that, my church was rapidly embracing the "Toronto Blessing." We had always accepted instances of "holy laughter" or "laughing in the Spirit" and the occasional getting "drunk in the Spirit"; but the church was quickly reaching the point where, if any service did not feature several people getting the giggles or "falling under the power" (getting "slain in the Spirit"), people acted like God decided to stay home and skip the meeting. They actually sent people to Toronto to bring back some of the "anointing." That, even more than the WoF issues, prompted me to leave.
For the next several years, I was trigger-happy in denouncing WoF. I'm sure I used the term, "false prophets," but I meant it in the sense of people saying demonstrably false things, supposedly "by the Spirit." I've since learned that theologians and apologists usually use the term to refer to proclaiming or leading people to a false Christ. I don't know whether I ever used the words "heresy" or "heretic" or "heretical." If I did, I believe I mostly stopped after reading Rob Bowman's The Word-Faith Controversy. It was careful, dispassionate, and fair, and helped me moderate my attitude and approach.
I'm critical of the attitudes, emphases, and stupid exegesis of Word-Faith proponents.
But I'm also critical of cessationism-advocates, and of those quick to apply the "heresy / heretic" label.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
- 1 like
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI've been metaphorically shooting in both directions for at least 25 years.
For the bottom line, skip past the box. For the details, don't.
From about 1984 to 1994 or 1995 (about age 24 to 34 or 35 on earth, about age 4 to 14 or 15 "in the Lord"), I attended a Full Gospel / Pentecostal church with Word of Faith leanings. The pulpit preaching was generally not "hardcore" WoF, but the book table and tape library were stocked with materials from Rhema and Harrison House. For the first few months of my attendance, before we moved into a "real" church building, we rented meeting space in a local storage facility belonging to R.W. Schambach. About once a year, David Kirkwood (his name back then), a pastor from down near Pittsburgh, visited and taught at a few services. He was my favorite guest-preacher. We also had occasional visits from John Nuzzo, long before he became pastor of a church. Two of our favorite recurring guests were Bishop Silas Owiti and singer/pianist/evangelist Roger Blair. It is literally amazing to me that I can find NO info online about the latter; he was an itinerant singer, pianist, and evangelist most notable for his "laughing in the Spirit" ministry several years before that stuff exploded into international fame in Toronto and Florida. (Well, not "NO" info. I did find this post that I myself wrote on another forum about 14 years ago.)
I read and re-read scores of books by Faith teachers, and listened to many hours of teaching tapes. I also read critical books by Bruce Barron, Dan McConnell, Gordon Fee, B.J. Oropeza, and Hank Hanegraaff. (I never got around to reading the books by Dave Hunt and John MacArthur.) I also read (poorly-attempted) rebuttals by Reid, et al (Seduction?? A Biblical Response) and Bruno (Christianity in Power). And I consumed a few books and tapes by Pat Robertson and Malcolm Smith, and a couple by Vineyard-affiliated authors James White (When the Spirit Comes with Power) and Ken Blue (Authority to Heal).
From fairly early on, I had minor issues with WoF interpretations of a few passages of Scripture, in some cases because the WoF interpretation depended on the KJV and I used the NASB or occasionally NIV. I was young and assumed they generally knew their stuff, so I filed those away. Around the early '90s, things transpired that made me aware that a couple of the top WoF luminaries had spoken blatant falsehoods "by the Spirit." That motivated me to carefully scrutinize WoF teachings and sayings, and interpretations of many passages of Scripture over the next few years. At the same time I was doing that, my church was rapidly embracing the "Toronto Blessing." We had always accepted instances of "holy laughter" or "laughing in the Spirit" and the occasional getting "drunk in the Spirit"; but the church was quickly reaching the point where, if any service did not feature several people getting the giggles or "falling under the power" (getting "slain in the Spirit"), people acted like God decided to stay home and skip the meeting. They actually sent people to Toronto to bring back some of the "anointing." That, even more than the WoF issues, prompted me to leave.
For the next several years, I was trigger-happy in denouncing WoF. I'm sure I used the term, "false prophets," but I meant it in the sense of people saying demonstrably false things, supposedly "by the Spirit." I've since learned that theologians and apologists usually use the term to refer to proclaiming or leading people to a false Christ. I don't know whether I ever used the words "heresy" or "heretic" or "heretical." If I did, I believe I mostly stopped after reading Rob Bowman's The Word-Faith Controversy. It was careful, dispassionate, and fair, and helped me moderate my attitude and approach.
I'm critical of the attitudes, emphases, and stupid exegesis of Word-Faith proponents.
But I'm also critical of cessationism-advocates, and of those quick to apply the "heresy / heretic" label."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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