The Most Difficult Teaching

[The Remonstrant]

The most difficult teaching is teaching that is difficult.

[phat8594]

I believe there's always a middle ground. I mean, there's only so far you can take it until you're unable to function in this life. It's more about one's mindset. It's just that the church seems to always go in the extreme opposite of what Jesus taught. Jesus' teaching on money vs. prosperity teaching and general political views towards wealth and the wealthy class. Jesus' teaching about the family vs. political Christianity's hyper-promotion of the family. It's just kind of odd.

What do you mean by 'prosperity teaching'? Many people have a differing view on what that entails, and where that comes from.

Personally, I do not see a contradiction between Jesus' teachings on money and the idea of prosperity.


(please note that I do not preach or endorse a 'prosperity gospel'...i.e. Jesus died to make you a millionaire.)

[seanD]

What do you mean by 'prosperity teaching'? Many people have a differing view on what that entails, and where that comes from.

Personally, I do not see a contradiction between Jesus' teachings on money and the idea of prosperity.


(please note that I do not preach or endorse a 'prosperity gospel'...i.e. Jesus died to make you a millionaire.)

Depends on what you mean by the word "prosperity." My definition of prosperity teaching is concentrating on becoming materialistically wealthy -- focusing about becoming wealthy, praying about becoming wealthy, being unhappy because one is not wealthy, feeling inadequate because one is not wealthy, centering one's social and even spiritual life around becoming wealthy, giving in order to "receive a blessing in return" instead of giving out of obedience and one's love for the Lord, etc. It's about mindset.

[phat8594]

Depends on what you mean by the word "prosperity." My definition of prosperity teaching is concentrating on becoming materialistically wealthy -- focusing about becoming wealthy, praying about becoming wealthy, being unhappy because one is not wealthy, feeling inadequate because one is not wealthy, centering one's social and even spiritual life around becoming wealthy, giving in order to "receive a blessing in return" instead of giving out of obedience and one's love for the Lord, etc. It's about mindset.

Ok. So it seems you are more referring to a materialistic mindset rather than just the idea of 'prosperity'.

IMO, prosperity is a good thing and it is something that we should strive for, but not focus on. What I mean by that is that we should always seek to use to the fullest, all that God has given us...and that includes financial wealth. I do believe that, especially in America, there is a call to financially prosper... (there is incredible opportunity here in the US to bring blessing to the rest of the world)

BUT

What needs to be noted is that it seems that most people redefine prosperity from a carnal and materialistic mindset. So the error is not in growing or building material wealth...but it is the focus on accumulating wealth for oneself.

In other words, prosperity isn't measured in how much one accumulates -- but rather in how free one is to give / bless. One who truly prospers is one who builds up the life and opportunity of others. That means building up wealth is not about accumulation for self but about providing for and blessing others. I believe that in America (and much of the western world) we have lost sight as to why we have been blessed. (as a whole, it seems we think it is about us rather than about others).

When one's focus is on becoming wealthy, rather than pleasing God, I do believe that one is under the influence of mammon. You can be either rich or poor and be under that influence.

[seanD]

Again, it depends on what you mean by prosperity. If by propensity you mean financial stability, that's where the lines typically get very gray. If by financial stability, we mean material excess, that's where the problems begin. The thing is, looking at it purely from a worldly point of view, unless one has come into an inheritance from some great uncle or something or is hired as a CEO because they have a relative at the top of the company, by acquiring prosperity, there's no way one can NOT focus on prosperity (by the definition I just described) if they don't yet have it. It's impossible not to put one's blood, sweat and tears and mental focus into gaining it if they're starting from scratch and then must put fourth the same effort maintaining it once they reach that point. But again, that's where the lines get blurred between what Jesus taught, what we want and don't have, and what we need.

[phat8594]

Again, it depends on what you mean by prosperity. If by propensity you mean financial stability, that's where the lines typically get very gray. If by financial stability, we mean material excess, that's where the problems begin. The thing is, looking at it purely from a worldly point of view, unless one has come into an inheritance from some great uncle or something or is hired as a CEO because they have a relative at the top of the company, by acquiring prosperity, there's no way one can NOT focus on prosperity (by the definition I just described) if they don't yet have it. It's impossible not to put one's blood, sweat and tears and mental focus into gaining it if they're starting from scratch and then must put fourth the same effort maintaining it once they reach that point. But again, that's where the lines get blurred between what Jesus taught, what we want and don't have, and what we need.

Working and making money is a part of life. You can make money and become financially prosperous without money becoming your god.

What is unfortunate is that often times money itself is demonized today by many Christians, rather than the actual worshipping it. And let me be clear, you can worship it whether rich or poor -- wealth and money aren't the problem -- the problem is the spirit at work behind the money (mammon). The issues with money have to do with a heart issue.

The question really is, are you a slave of money, or is money your slave?

Money is simply a tool, that can be used for good or for bad. A righteous person can attain much wealth and honor God at the same time. In fact, many people honor God by the very fact that they grow the money that God has blessed them with.

[seanD]

Working and making money is a part of life. You can make money and become financially prosperous without money becoming your god.

What is unfortunate is that often times money itself is demonized today by many Christians, rather than the actual worshipping it. And let me be clear, you can worship it whether rich or poor -- wealth and money aren't the problem -- the problem is the spirit at work behind the money (mammon). The issues with money have to do with a heart issue.

The question really is, are you a slave of money, or is money your slave?

Money is simply a tool, that can be used for good or for bad. A righteous person can attain much wealth and honor God at the same time. In fact, many people honor God by the very fact that they grow the money that God has blessed them with.

I agree with everything you said. Again, it comes down to the gray areas that lie between wealth beyond excess and financial stability. There are rare exceptions that a righteous person can attain great wealth and still fulfill Matthew 6:25-34. A righteous person that has attained wealth beyond excess and that is in good standing in the faith and their relationship with the Lord will likely be seriously involved in the ministry.

[KingsGambit]

I agree with so much of what you gentlemen have said. Realistically speaking, in our society, it is far easier to fall into the error of being controlled by money. While there are some biblical verses that temper the warnings about money (1 Timothy 6:17), Scripture has much more to say to warn people about what money can do.

[phat8594]

I agree with everything you said. Again, it comes down to the gray areas that lie between wealth beyond excess and financial stability. There are rare exceptions that a righteous person can attain great wealth and still fulfill Matthew 6:25-34. A righteous person that has attained wealth beyond excess and that is in good standing in the faith and their relationship with the Lord will likely be seriously involved in the ministry.

But see I think you are still focused on the money issue (wealth beyond excess and financial stability) rather than the heart issue.

Jesus' point in Matthew 6:25-34 isnt that wealth is bad, or that we shouldn't seek to grow it (also see his stories on stewardship) but rather that we should not put our hope and trust in things of this world. In other words, where does one's stability and security come from? Jesus points out that the world puts its trust in material things, which are fleeting. As Christians we find our security in God, and thus do not have to worry about our supply, but rather pleasing God. This isn't a new thought that Jesus is introducing, but rather one found in the OT:

Whoever trusts in his riches will fall,
but the righteous will flourish like a green leaf.

I should note that I do disagree that a righteous person would likely be involved in the ministry (I am assuming you are referring to some sort of position in the church). I do agree, however, that a righteous person will turn their wealth into a ministry both through evangelism, and giving.

If you notice, the Bible doesn't really label the righteous as 'involved in the ministry'. The Bible, does, however commonly refer to the righteous as generous. A wealthy person who is righteous will often have this as a testimony of their life:

One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want.

So the question isn't about a gray line between financial stability or wealth beyond excess -- the question is really, what is the spirit working behind money in your heart? Is it mammon or is it God? You cannot serve both.

You can have little (or no) financial stability and be totally consumed with money (what do you call coveting?) -- while you can have wealth beyond excess and be totally consumed with God (David is a great example of this).

[phat8594]

I agree with so much of what you gentlemen have said. Realistically speaking, in our society, it is far easier to fall into the error of being controlled by money. While there are some biblical verses that temper the warnings about money (1 Timothy 6:17), Scripture has much more to say to warn people about what money can do.

Yes, I agree that it is very easy to fall into the error of being controlled by money. I think you see it in both the rich and the poor. As I was telling SeanD, its not about how much or what you have, its about what spirit is at work in your heart. Is it a spirit of mammon, or is it God?

Signs you are under the influence of mammon:
tend to be mean, stingy, and/or witholding around the issue of money
Unable to richly enjoy all that God has given us (this is one reason you see many wealthy people completely unable to enjoy all the things they have).
Tend to be anxious around the issues of money (again, you see this in both the rich and the poor)
Always want 'a little more' (no matter how much they have) (in Christians we see people say 'I'd give' if I had a little more)


Signs you are under the influence of God with money:
Generous
Not anxious about money
Richly enjoy all good things given from God
Did I say generous? As in extravagantly generous?
Seeks to use money to further God's kingdom
Sorrow does not surround their money
Oh..and they are generous too.



Unfortunately, I believe much of the western world (including Christians) is under bondage to mammon - totally unable or unwilling to give, anxious, and unable to enjoy all that God has given us. This breaks my heart, and I do pray that we would wake up and be like our Father in heaven, who is extravagantly generous.

[The Remonstrant]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving money.

[phat8594]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving money.

I think you need to start using a specific font color or style for sarcasm.