Mosaic Law vs New testament on Death penalty(Split from Pope on death penalty thread)

[Catholicity]

God did command the death penalties for various sins, Cath. Read the mosaic law.

I have. I can restate what I think or what my interpretation is. God made an allowance for the death penalty for several reasons. Under the new covenant we are called to a higher standard and using the death penalty should not be permissable as a tool of vengeance. That said obviously you don't have to agree with me. Its just my personal interpretation. IMO the Mosaic law had instances where vengeance was permissable via death and while the scribes wrote that it was God's commandment, I do not necessarily believe it to be the case I believe it to be their understanding of Justice.

[Sparko]

I have. I can restate what I think or what my interpretation is. God made an allowance for the death penalty for several reasons. Under the new covenant we are called to a higher standard and using the death penalty should not be permissable as a tool of vengeance. That said obviously you don't have to agree with me. Its just my personal interpretation. IMO the Mosaic law had instances where vengeance was permissable via death and while the scribes wrote that it was God's commandment, I do not necessarily believe it to be the case I believe it to be their understanding of Justice.

So Moses lied about what God commanded? The death penalty wasn't "allowed" - it was commanded in various circumstances. By God.

[Catholicity]

Urmm I am not a literalist and I think this is what the Scribes believed and thus did not tell a lie. Yes I do believe there was some allowance here. However I think debate would be pointless and useless as we would totally end up talking past each other. For example you already think I am accusing Moses of lying which I am not. I have an interpretation that certain punishments were believed to be commanded by God, however this was merely the understanding of the time. This is not the same as saying "Moses lied about what God said." its far from it. Its saying that "Moses believed that God commanded" and thus it was written. God used men to write the Bible, and what is written by men about what God said is subjected to the judgement of men. IMO its possible that 1) they believed the death penalty or understood it to be justifiable according to their understanding of God and it was written that "God commanded it" Still not the same as your accusation of "Moses lied about what God said. " This is my thoughts on what Moses understood according to many things. However that said, and whether it makes sense or not, I'm going to leave it be as it is useless to debate it further.

[Sparko]

Urmm I am not a literalist and I think this is what the Scribes believed and thus did not tell a lie. Yes I do believe there was some allowance here. However I think debate would be pointless and useless as we would totally end up talking past each other. For example you already think I am accusing Moses of lying which I am not. I have an interpretation that certain punishments were believed to be commanded by God, however this was merely the understanding of the time. This is not the same as saying "Moses lied about what God said." its far from it. Its saying that "Moses believed that God commanded" and thus it was written. God used men to write the Bible, and what is written by men about what God said is subjected to the judgement of men. IMO its possible that 1) they believed the death penalty or understood it to be justifiable according to their understanding of God and it was written that "God commanded it" Still not the same as your accusation of "Moses lied about what God said. " This is my thoughts on what Moses understood according to many things. However that said, and whether it makes sense or not, I'm going to leave it be as it is useless to debate it further.

The mosaic law wasn't written by "the scribes" it was dictated to Moses by God himself. Moses was "the scribe"

Exodus 20:20 And God spoke all these words:

[Catholicity]

The mosaic law wasn't written by "the scribes" it was dictated to Moses by God himself. Moses was "the scribe"

Exodus 20:20 And God spoke all these words:

So this is going to get off topic but most Biblical scholars contend the Tanakh does not have a single author. FYI. Just to make a point Moses could not have written the words "And Moses Died" Obviously the very deep tradition is that Joshua or his direct Scribes wrote it, however from what is best understood the Pentateuch was not actually written as the five books until the time of the Temple but prior to, there are fragments and oral tradition as passed down. I believe I will stop here and also let my husband take over as he has better sources on this and I am not sure where my notes are from the seminary class I took on it. Or we can if you are interested split this off into another Topic.

[Sparko]

So this is going to get off topic but most Biblical scholars contend the Tanakh does not have a single author. FYI. Just to make a point Moses could not have written the words "And Moses Died" Obviously the very deep tradition is that Joshua or his direct Scribes wrote it, however from what is best understood the Pentateuch was not actually written as the five books until the time of the Temple but prior to, there are fragments and oral tradition as passed down. I believe I will stop here and also let my husband take over as he has better sources on this and I am not sure where my notes are from the seminary class I took on it. Or we can if you are interested split this off into another Topic.

Sure, Joshua or others might have finished the Pentateuch. But we are talking about God giving Moses the law directly and Moses writing it down for the people. Even if another scribe recorded the event (which I contest) the actual law was written down by Moses as dictated to him by God. The later scribes would have had those actual words to refer to if someone else recorded the events surrounding the giving of the law. So as much as you want to deny it, or handwave it away, God actually gave commands to put people to death for various violations. You can't deny that without basically denying that we can trust the bible at all. Because if the Jews made up the parts of the law recorded in Exodus, then they could have made up the entire Old Testament. You can't trust anything in the bible. Therefore your faith has no basis other than feelings. So don't go there. You can't deny parts of the bible you don't like and accept the parts you do like. It is not a smorgasbord.

God even directly commanded the Israelites to slaughter some their enemies, right down to the women and children. And God himself destroyed entire cities, and the entire world except for 8 people once.

[Catholicity]

Sure, Joshua or others might have finished the Pentateuch. But we are talking about God giving Moses the law directly and Moses writing it down for the people. Even if another scribe recorded the event (which I contest)

Again that's why I think unless we started a topic about how the Torah and Tanakh came to be written we'd be getting into semantics as I'm not a literalist here. There are several schools of thought about how it came to be in its complete form.

the actual law was written down by Moses as dictated to him by God.

Ermmm I might go here with the original 10 commandments but perhaps not the expansion as written in the priestly books.

[Quote]The later scribes would have had those actual words to refer to if someone else recorded the events surrounding the giving of the law. So as much as you want to deny it[/Quote Wrong, I believe that later during the temple period scribes actually compiled the fragments stone and oral traditions that had been around for many years already.

God actually gave commands to put people to death for various violations. You can't deny that without basicaly denying that we can trust the bible at all. Because if the Jews made up the parts of the law recorded in Exodus, then they could have made up the entire Old Testament. You can't trust anything in the bible. Therefore your faith has no basis other than feelings. So don't go there. You can't deny parts of the bible you don't like and accept the parts you do like. It is not a smorgasbord.

Umm no this is how the whole of scripture WAS put together and I don't believe its a smorgasbord or a choice or something to cherrypick. Its God's word period.

God even directly commanded the Israelites to slaughter some their enemies, right down to the women and children. And God himself destroyed entire cities, and the entire world except for 8 people once.

I agree that is what the Israelites believed God said. Its in Scripture. My faith in God and the fact that I believe the Bible is the word of God have nothing to do with feelings. There are lots of parts of Scripture I don't like, but I certainly trust that God knows what He is doing.

[Sparko]

Again that's why I think unless we started a topic about how the Torah and Tanakh came to be written we'd be getting into semantics as I'm not a literalist here. There are several schools of thought about how it came to be in its complete form.
Ermmm I might go here with the original 10 commandments but perhaps not the expansion as written in the priestly books.

The part I quoted was part of the same narrative and time when God gave Moses the 10 commandments. He gave him the commandments in Exodus 20 and continued to give him the law in Exodus 21 including the bits about "put to death" - there is no "expansion"

It starts with
20 And God spoke all these words:

So either God spoke all those words or the "scribes" directly LIED and we can't trust the bible at all. No other choice. They (Moses) would know if God spoke those words or not. You can't say "they believed God spoke those words" because they would know for a fact if he did or not. They said he did. So either they lied or God spoke those words.

Wrong, I believe that later during the temple period scribes actually compiled the fragments stone and oral traditions that had been around for many years already.
Umm no this is how the whole of scripture WAS put together and I don't believe its a smorgasbord or a choice or something to cherrypick. Its God's word period.

I agree that is what the Israelites believed God said. Its in Scripture. My faith in God and the fact that I believe the Bible is the word of God have nothing to do with feelings. There are lots of parts of Scripture I don't like, but I certainly trust that God knows what He is doing.

And yet you are tossing out the parts you don't like and claiming it was an error on the part of scribes. If you are correct then we can't trust the bible at all. You can claim you do, but you have no basis for that claim. If it is wrong in such important matters as the mosaic law, then nothing in the bible is trustworthy.

But I will drop this since it is your thread and it is off topic. I have said what I wanted to.

[mossrose]

I have. I can restate what I think or what my interpretation is. God made an allowance for the death penalty for several reasons. Under the new covenant we are called to a higher standard and using the death penalty should not be permissable as a tool of vengeance. That said obviously you don't have to agree with me. Its just my personal interpretation. IMO the Mosaic law had instances where vengeance was permissable via death and while the scribes wrote that it was God's commandment, I do not necessarily believe it to be the case I believe it to be their understanding of Justice.

The standard we are called to is really no different than that of those under the Mosaic covenant. We are to honour God and love our neighbour as ourselves, which encompasses all of the 10 commandments. Which no one is capable of following.

Please indicate the scripture in the NT where you believe the direction to punish wrongdoing by death was negated.

[Catholicity]

I am requesting that as the thread initiator Seer and Klaus do not post in here. Thanks

[Catholicity]

The standard we are called to is really no different than that of those under the Mosaic covenant. We are to honour God and love our neighbour as ourselves, which encompasses all of the 10 commandments. Which no one is capable of following.

Please indicate the scripture in the NT where you believe the direction to punish wrongdoing by death was negated.

Good question. I believe that when Christ was preaching the Sermon on the Mount he was calling us to examine our conscience and our hearts. I believe he was calling us to a greater purpose. Under Moses it was literally An eye for an eye. in other words it was acceptable that all punishments were to fit the crime. However with the Sermon on the mount Jesus made it clear that we were called to a greater purpose than trading punishment for punishment. Its possible that in some (not necessarily all as I made that point earlier) but some circumstances this also means death.

[Obsidian]

So basically, you don't believe in justice.

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html

[Faber]

The whole basis of the Gospel is that we all deserve death due to our sin, and that we are all condemned already. Jesus came to suffer death for us.

My take on the death penalty is that murderers are obviously not opposed to it. Why should we be?

[Marta]

The mosaic law wasn't written by "the scribes" it was dictated to Moses by God himself. Moses was "the scribe"

Exodus 20:20 And God spoke all these words:

Does sin become to a point within a person where "death" is the only answer? e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah? Ezekiel 16:50 "She was proud and committed detestable sins, so I wiped her out, as you have seen."


However, there is a prayer that is said by both Hannah and also Mary that are almost similar to each other., "He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things but has sent the rich away empty. In Hannah's prayer Is my iniquity too great to bear

Psalms 51:

"10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Who is the best judge when it comes to the death penalty as when the soul dies and can not receive the light of God or His Love. There is nothing anyone can do when the soul becomes a prisoner of it own body but to pray to restore it. You have to ask yourself this question; which is worse the death of a soul or the physical body? or both?

[Marta]

Good question. I believe that when Christ was preaching the Sermon on the Mount he was calling us to examine our conscience and our hearts. I believe he was calling us to a greater purpose. Under Moses it was literally An eye for an eye. in other words it was acceptable that all punishments were to fit the crime. However with the Sermon on the mount Jesus made it clear that we were called to a greater purpose than trading punishment for punishment. Its possible that in some (not necessarily all as I made that point earlier) but some circumstances this also means death.

I think that Christ took the meaning of the law to a new level of understanding and made it more compassionate and not so clear cut, Psalms 119: "Deal bountifully with your servant,that I may live and keep your word."...Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law.