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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Jude 1:25

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  • Jude 1:25

    The KJV says :
    To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    New American Standard Bible
    to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now and forever. Amen.

    Why does the KJV leave out through Jesus Christ our Lord?

    Should the phrase be in this passage or not?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    The phrase is not in the text -- MGNT nor TR

    Comment


    • #3
      From the NKJV:

      To God our Savior,[a]
      Who alone is wise,[b]
      Be glory and majesty,
      Dominion and power,[c]
      Both now and forever.
      Amen.
      Footnotes:

      a. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
      b. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
      c. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

      I don't think the phrase is necessary, and may be awkward to exegete; where else is God the Father referred to as "Savior"?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        From the NKJV:

        To God our Savior,[a]
        Who alone is wise,[b]
        Be glory and majesty,
        Dominion and power,[c]
        Both now and forever.
        Amen.
        Footnotes:

        a. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
        b. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
        c. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

        I don't think the phrase is necessary, and may be awkward to exegete; where else is God the Father referred to as "Savior"?

        New American Standard Bible
        to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

        Holman Christian Standard Bible
        to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now and forever. Amen.

        International Standard Version
        to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time and for all eternity! Amen.

        NET Bible
        to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time, and now, and for all eternity. Amen.

        Aramaic Bible in Plain English
        Before his glory in joy ( He alone is God our Savior by Yeshua The Messiah our Lord ); to him is the praise, dominion, honor and majesty, even now and unto all ages. Amen.

        Are the phrases in bold speaking of God or Jesus?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          Are the phrases in bold speaking of God or Jesus?
          The referent is to God. Of course, Jesus is God in orthodox theology. The way the sentence is structured (in English at any rate), the phrases in bold are not referring to Jesus in the Alexandrian (NU) text.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            The referent is to God. Of course, Jesus is God in orthodox theology. The way the sentence is structured (in English at any rate), the phrases in bold are not referring to Jesus in the Alexandrian (NU) text.
            Great! I just had to make sure. I'm talking to a Muslim who believes "be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time and for all eternity!" was referring to Jesus and he cites the verse as an example of someone inserting the phrase "through Jesus Christ our Lord" to insert a claim to Jesus' divinity.

            I needed someone to confirm. I appreciate the help.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              From the NKJV:

              To God our Savior,[a]
              Who alone is wise,[b]
              Be glory and majesty,
              Dominion and power,[c]
              Both now and forever.
              Amen.
              Footnotes:

              a. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
              b. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
              c. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

              I don't think the phrase is necessary, and may be awkward to exegete; where else is God the Father referred to as "Savior"?
              You want to delete the phrase 'our Savior'? I don't have access to a textual apparatus right now and only have the SBLGNT available on my phone, where it definitely appears in the Greek. Since it is also in the KJV, it seems to have also been part of the majority text as well.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                The referent is to God. Of course, Jesus is God in orthodox theology. The way the sentence is structured (in English at any rate), the phrases in bold are not referring to Jesus in the Alexandrian (NU) text.
                That is also the structure in Greek.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  You want to delete the phrase 'our Savior'? I don't have access to a textual apparatus right now and only have the SBLGNT available on my phone, where it definitely appears in the Greek.
                  Um, no. I prefer the Majority Text to the NU. As far as I can see, the NU reading makes "our Savior" applicable to God but not to Jesus in this passage.
                  Since it is also in the KJV, it seems to have also been part of the majority text as well.
                  I agree that 'our Savior' is in the Majority Text, but your conclusion does not follow; the KJV does not always follow the Majority Text.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht
                    That is also the structure in Greek.
                    Thanks.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Um, no. I prefer the Majority Text to the NU. As far as I can see, the NU reading makes "our Savior" applicable to God but not to Jesus in this passage.

                      I agree that 'our Savior' is in the Majority Text, but your conclusion does not follow; the KJV does not always follow the Majority Text.
                      Yes, it is applicable to God. Sorry, I did not intend my statement as a necessary conclusion since I do not have access to a textual apparatus, hence my tentative 'it seems'. It is frequently so, more often than not, I believe. From your a, b & c apparatus, it did not appear to be lacking. Also, I'm not sure what your a, b & c stand for. On my stupid phone I only see "NU-Text" as the identification for all three.
                      Last edited by robrecht; 01-23-2014, 03:07 PM.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What manuscript do the KJV translators use and is it the oldest? How reliable is the KJV? I understand the KJV was written in 1600 AD, but I don't know what manuscript the translators used for the their translation.

                        Thanks.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Yes, it is applicable to God. Sorry, I did not intend my statement as a necessary conclusion since I do not have access to a textual apparatus, hence my tentative 'it seems'. It is frequently so, more often than not, I believe. From your a, b & c apparatus, it did not appear to be lacking. Also, I'm not sure what your a, b & c stand for. On my stupid phone I only see "NU-Text" as the identification for all three.
                          They're footnotes in the NKJV. It (usually) indicates where the underlying text is different from the TR, and provides the translation of the Majority Text or NU variant in a footnote.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Christian3
                            What manuscript do the KJV translators use and is it the oldest? How reliable is the KJV? I understand the KJV was written in 1600 AD, but I don't know what manuscript the translators used for the their translation.

                            Thanks.
                            The KJV uses a critical text based on a few late manuscripts hastily collated by Erasmus in the 16th century, commonly known as the Textus Receptus. The KJV is generally a decent translation of the underlying text, but the underlying text leaves a bit to be desired (particularly at the end of Revelation, where Erasmus couldn't find any Greek MS support and did a (poor) back-translation from the Latin instead).
                            Last edited by One Bad Pig; 01-23-2014, 04:11 PM.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Erasmus improved upon his original 1516 edition, which was actually designed to support his new Latin translation. IIRC, the Latin retro-translation into Greek at the end of Revelation was fixed in his 2nd edition. Others improved upon Erasmus' work, especially Stephanus and Bezae (primarily in the development of the growing critical apparatus), and it was one of these later versions by Elzevir in 1633 which first designated itself textus receptus. The KJV appeared in 1611. There's some 98% agreement between the various editions of the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. The KJV follows a couple of different editions of the early printed Greek NTs, but no single one exactly. Modern critical texts of the Greek NT are superior to the Textus Receptus, but KJV-only fans will never admit this.

                              Here's a good summary:

                              http://www.scripture4all.org/ISA2_he...rTR/ScrTR.html
                              Last edited by robrecht; 01-23-2014, 05:03 PM.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment

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