Jude 1:25

[robrecht]

Erasmus improved upon his original 1516 edition, which was actually designed to support his new Latin translation. IIRC, the Latin retro-translation into Greek at the end of Revelation was fixed in his 2nd edition. Others improved upon Erasmus' work, especially Stephanus and Bezae (primarily in the development of the growing critical apparatus), and it was one of these later versions by Elzevir in 1633 which first designated itself textus receptus. The KJV appeared in 1611. There's some 98% agreement between the various editions of the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. The KJV follows a couple of different editions of the early printed Greek NTs, but no single one exactly. Modern critical texts of the Greek NT are superior to the Textus Receptus, but KJV-only fans will never admit this.

Here's a good summary:

http://www.scripture4all.org/ISA2_he...rTR/ScrTR.html

[One Bad Pig]

What manuscript do the KJV translators use and is it the oldest? How reliable is the KJV? I understand the KJV was written in 1600 AD, but I don't know what manuscript the translators used for the their translation.

Thanks.

The KJV uses a critical text based on a few late manuscripts hastily collated by Erasmus in the 16th century, commonly known as the Textus Receptus. The KJV is generally a decent translation of the underlying text, but the underlying text leaves a bit to be desired (particularly at the end of Revelation, where Erasmus couldn't find any Greek MS support and did a (poor) back-translation from the Latin instead).

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, it is applicable to God. Sorry, I did not intend my statement as a necessary conclusion since I do not have access to a textual apparatus, hence my tentative 'it seems'. It is frequently so, more often than not, I believe. From your a, b & c apparatus, it did not appear to be lacking. Also, I'm not sure what your a, b & c stand for. On my stupid phone I only see "NU-Text" as the identification for all three.

They're footnotes in the NKJV. It (usually) indicates where the underlying text is different from the TR, and provides the translation of the Majority Text or NU variant in a footnote.

[Christian3]

What manuscript do the KJV translators use and is it the oldest? How reliable is the KJV? I understand the KJV was written in 1600 AD, but I don't know what manuscript the translators used for the their translation.

Thanks.

[robrecht]

Um, no. I prefer the Majority Text to the NU. As far as I can see, the NU reading makes "our Savior" applicable to God but not to Jesus in this passage.

I agree that 'our Savior' is in the Majority Text, but your conclusion does not follow; the KJV does not always follow the Majority Text.

Yes, it is applicable to God. Sorry, I did not intend my statement as a necessary conclusion since I do not have access to a textual apparatus, hence my tentative 'it seems'. It is frequently so, more often than not, I believe. From your a, b & c apparatus, it did not appear to be lacking. Also, I'm not sure what your a, b & c stand for. On my stupid phone I only see "NU-Text" as the identification for all three.

[One Bad Pig]

That is also the structure in Greek.

Thanks.

[One Bad Pig]

You want to delete the phrase 'our Savior'? I don't have access to a textual apparatus right now and only have the SBLGNT available on my phone, where it definitely appears in the Greek.

Um, no. I prefer the Majority Text to the NU. As far as I can see, the NU reading makes "our Savior" applicable to God but not to Jesus in this passage.

Since it is also in the KJV, it seems to have also been part of the majority text as well.

I agree that 'our Savior' is in the Majority Text, but your conclusion does not follow; the KJV does not always follow the Majority Text.

[robrecht]

The referent is to God. Of course, Jesus is God in orthodox theology. The way the sentence is structured (in English at any rate), the phrases in bold are not referring to Jesus in the Alexandrian (NU) text.

That is also the structure in Greek.

[robrecht]

From the NKJV:

To God our Savior,[a]
Who alone is wise,[b]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[c]
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Footnotes:

a. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
b. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
c. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

I don't think the phrase is necessary, and may be awkward to exegete; where else is God the Father referred to as "Savior"?

You want to delete the phrase 'our Savior'? I don't have access to a textual apparatus right now and only have the SBLGNT available on my phone, where it definitely appears in the Greek. Since it is also in the KJV, it seems to have also been part of the majority text as well.

[Christian3]

The referent is to God. Of course, Jesus is God in orthodox theology. The way the sentence is structured (in English at any rate), the phrases in bold are not referring to Jesus in the Alexandrian (NU) text.

Great! I just had to make sure. I'm talking to a Muslim who believes "be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time and for all eternity!" was referring to Jesus and he cites the verse as an example of someone inserting the phrase "through Jesus Christ our Lord" to insert a claim to Jesus' divinity.

I needed someone to confirm. I appreciate the help.

[One Bad Pig]

Are the phrases in bold speaking of God or Jesus?

The referent is to God. Of course, Jesus is God in orthodox theology. The way the sentence is structured (in English at any rate), the phrases in bold are not referring to Jesus in the Alexandrian (NU) text.

[Christian3]

From the NKJV:

To God our Savior,[a]
Who alone is wise,[b]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[c]
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Footnotes:

a. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
b. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
c. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

I don't think the phrase is necessary, and may be awkward to exegete; where else is God the Father referred to as "Savior"?

New American Standard Bible
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now and forever. Amen.

International Standard Version
to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time and for all eternity! Amen.

NET Bible
to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time, and now, and for all eternity. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Before his glory in joy ( He alone is God our Savior by Yeshua The Messiah our Lord ); to him is the praise, dominion, honor and majesty, even now and unto all ages. Amen.

Are the phrases in bold speaking of God or Jesus?

[One Bad Pig]

From the NKJV:

To God our Savior,[a]
Who alone is wise,[b]
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,[c]
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Footnotes:

a. Jude 1:25 NU-Text reads To the only God our Savior.
b. Jude 1:25 NU-Text omits Who . . . is wise and adds Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
c. Jude 1:25 NU-Text adds Before all time.

I don't think the phrase is necessary, and may be awkward to exegete; where else is God the Father referred to as "Savior"?

[RonC]

The phrase is not in the text -- MGNT nor TR

[Christian3]

The KJV says :
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

New American Standard Bible
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now and forever. Amen.

Why does the KJV leave out through Jesus Christ our Lord?

Should the phrase be in this passage or not?

Thanks.