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This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
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John 20:28, My Lord and My God
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Yes. That is literal reading of the Greek text:
. . . ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου.
ο κυριος - the Lord
μου - of me
και - and
ο θεος - the God
μου - of me
Thomas address Jesus as both his Lord and his God. Jesus was Lord being the man and God being the Son (John 5:23-24; John 14:6, 9; 1 John 5:20; John 17:3).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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yeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYes. That is literal reading of the Greek text:
. . . ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου.
ο κυριος - the Lord
μου - of me
και - and
ο θεος - the God
μου - of me
Thomas address Jesus as both his Lord and his God. Jesus was Lord being the man and God being the Son (John 5:23-24; John 14:6, 9; 1 John 5:20; John 17:3).
Thank you.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.
Elsewhere, there are passages that call Jesus "Lord", and the Father "God" - but such passages, rather than denying the Deity of Christ, show that He is not the Father. That He is not the Father, does not mean He is not God.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 09-09-2017, 04:06 PM.
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"Lord of me" is the normal Greek syntax for "my Lord." There's no question what the sentence says. Theodore of Mopsuestia (an ancient theologian whose theology was eventually rejected) thought it was an exclamation of praise to God, not a specific statement about Jesus. Almost no one currently agrees with this. Just how Jesus is God, however, isn't visible in this verse, but requires explanation based on other passages. John 1 would be a good starting point.
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In the text Thomas explicitly address Jesus as his Lord and God. ". . . And Thomas answered and said unto Him, . . ." . . . και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω . . . .. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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I'm not sure how many readers of this site accept higher criticism. For those that do, it's worth noting that all three of the modern commentaries I have don't think Jesus himself actually said these words. Rather they reflect John's theology, a more complex expression of which is in John 1. That doesn't mean it's wrong, of course.
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Originally posted by hedrick View PostI'm not sure how many readers of this site accept higher criticism. For those that do, it's worth noting that all three of the modern commentaries I have don't think Jesus himself actually said these words. Rather they reflect John's theology, a more complex expression of which is in John 1. That doesn't mean it's wrong, of course.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo according to higher criticism, what John wrote was not really true. But writing what was not really true is not really wrong.
I'm less forgiving of writers claiming to be who they aren't.
[Incidentally, I do accept the theology of John 1. But I think we should distinguish between what Jesus said during his life and insights developed by the Christian community after the Resurrection. Even if John didn't always make that distinction clear.]Last edited by hedrick; 09-17-2017, 03:51 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postyeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article
Emperor Domitian, and ruthless dictator, reigned from AD 81 to 96. He was the son of Emperor Vespasian and the brother of Titus, the conquerors of Jerusalem in AD 70
v. 15,
v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.
φίλος = friend
cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.
and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sickOur friend Lazarus
ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose
= Hebrew "satar"
"soteir" = opposer, denier
denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
1 John 2:22,
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
"soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article
The Book of Revelation is a polemic against Emperor Domitian and the Roman worldLast edited by Geert van den Bos; 12-30-2017, 02:24 AM.
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostThey do have a response at John 20:17 were Jesus calls The "Father" "my God" just as it is with "Mary."
He does the same just before he dies quoting Psalm 22.
BU. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Oh, hai kofhy. Long time no see.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYeah, Jesus was a man. It does not change the fact that according to John 20:28 Thomas addressed Jesus as both his Lord and God.
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
So not: that you may believe that Jesus is God
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