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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • John 20:28, My Lord and My God

    John 20:28

    28 Thomas responded to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Some commentaries say that what Thomas really said was: "The Lord of me and the God of me."

    Is that true?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Yes. That is literal reading of the Greek text:

    . . . ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου.

    ο κυριος - the Lord
    μου - of me
    και - and
    ο θεος - the God
    μου - of me

    Thomas address Jesus as both his Lord and his God. Jesus was Lord being the man and God being the Son (John 5:23-24; John 14:6, 9; 1 John 5:20; John 17:3).
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #3
      yeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Yes. That is literal reading of the Greek text:

        . . . ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου.

        ο κυριος - the Lord
        μου - of me
        και - and
        ο θεος - the God
        μου - of me

        Thomas address Jesus as both his Lord and his God. Jesus was Lord being the man and God being the Son (John 5:23-24; John 14:6, 9; 1 John 5:20; John 17:3).
        Excellent.

        Thank you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          yeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.
          The only way out - not that this works either - is to say that St Thomas was addressing Jesus as Lord, and the Father as God. But that interptetation is - in this context - forced and unnatural, and ignores the "blasphemous" statements by Jesus in the same Gospel, to which this is connected: Jesus has claimed to be God in earlier passages - and in this passage, after His Resurrection, we have one of His Disciples confessing and recognising His Deity. The passage should be compared with other NT acknowledgements of Jesus' Messiahship, Lordship, or Deity - as well with the denials or rejections of them.

          Elsewhere, there are passages that call Jesus "Lord", and the Father "God" - but such passages, rather than denying the Deity of Christ, show that He is not the Father. That He is not the Father, does not mean He is not God.
          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 09-09-2017, 05:06 PM.

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          • #6
            "Lord of me" is the normal Greek syntax for "my Lord." There's no question what the sentence says. Theodore of Mopsuestia (an ancient theologian whose theology was eventually rejected) thought it was an exclamation of praise to God, not a specific statement about Jesus. Almost no one currently agrees with this. Just how Jesus is God, however, isn't visible in this verse, but requires explanation based on other passages. John 1 would be a good starting point.

            Comment


            • #7
              In the text Thomas explicitly address Jesus as his Lord and God. ". . . And Thomas answered and said unto Him, . . ." . . . και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω . . . .
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not sure how many readers of this site accept higher criticism. For those that do, it's worth noting that all three of the modern commentaries I have don't think Jesus himself actually said these words. Rather they reflect John's theology, a more complex expression of which is in John 1. That doesn't mean it's wrong, of course.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                  I'm not sure how many readers of this site accept higher criticism. For those that do, it's worth noting that all three of the modern commentaries I have don't think Jesus himself actually said these words. Rather they reflect John's theology, a more complex expression of which is in John 1. That doesn't mean it's wrong, of course.
                  So according to higher criticism, what John wrote was not really true. But writing what was not really true is not really wrong.
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    So according to higher criticism, what John wrote was not really true. But writing what was not really true is not really wrong.
                    I take an intermediate position on ethics. In a time when people didn't carry iPhones to record, I think it's reasonable that writers created dialog that they thought was appropriate. That leads to somewhat flexible criteria about dialog.

                    I'm less forgiving of writers claiming to be who they aren't.

                    [Incidentally, I do accept the theology of John 1. But I think we should distinguish between what Jesus said during his life and insights developed by the Christian community after the Resurrection. Even if John didn't always make that distinction clear.]
                    Last edited by hedrick; 09-17-2017, 04:51 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      They do have a response at John 20:17 were Jesus calls The "Father" "my God" just as it is with "Mary."
                      He does the same just before he dies quoting Psalm 22.
                      BU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        yeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.
                        It proves that John was written during the reign of Domitian

                        http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article



                        Emperor Domitian, the self-proclaimed “Lord and God” and ruthless dictator, reigned from AD 81 to 96. He was the son of Emperor Vespasian and the brother of Titus, the conquerors of Jerusalem in AD 70
                        cf. John 19:12, the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”



                        v. 15, Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.



                        v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.

                        φίλος = friend


                        cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.

                        and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sick

                        and next
                        11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

                        ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose

                        = Hebrew "satar"

                        "soteir" = opposer, denier

                        denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
                        1 John 2:22,
                        Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

                        "soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18

                        http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article

                        The Book of Revelation is a polemic against Emperor Domitian and the Roman world
                        Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 12-30-2017, 03:24 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                          They do have a response at John 20:17 were Jesus calls The "Father" "my God" just as it is with "Mary."
                          He does the same just before he dies quoting Psalm 22.
                          BU
                          Yeah, Jesus was a man. It does not change the fact that according to John 20:28 Thomas addressed Jesus as both his Lord and God.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh, hai kofhy. Long time no see.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Yeah, Jesus was a man. It does not change the fact that according to John 20:28 Thomas addressed Jesus as both his Lord and God.
                              A few verses later, v.31, it says:

                              but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

                              So not: that you may believe that Jesus is God

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