Literal translations of Biblical names?

[Rushing Jaws]

Robrecht already did that in post #3

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post410281

And did it very well. Whether Adam ever existed is a separate issue.

[Geert van den Bos]

Genesis 4:9-11




The voice your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground
Hebrew קוֹל דְּמֵי אָחִיךָ צֹעֲקִים אֵלַי מִן הָאֲדָמָהso that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah


On all of them who persist that the name Adam should mean "from the ground" --

like also the manslayer, ἀνθρωποκτόνος, from the beginning (John 8:44)

[Geert van den Bos]

Mark 10:45,

καὶ γὰρ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἦλθεν διακονηθῆναι ἀλλὰ διακονῆσαι καi δοῦναι τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ λύτρον ἀντὶ πολλῶν = for also the son of man ( = ben (ha)Adam) didn't come to be served, but to serve and give his soul as ransom for the many.

ψυχή = Hebrew "nefesh" = soul

Blood is the soul of the flesh.

Genesis 9:4,
But, flesh with its soul, its blood, you shall not eat.

Mark 14:24,
Τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ αἷμά μου τῆς διαθήκης τὸ ἐκχυννόμενον ὑπὲρ πολλῶν: -- this is my blood of the covenant that is poured out for many.

[robrecht]

Genesis 5:1,
In the day that God created Adam, in the likeness of God made he him

in the likeness of God = "bid'mut elohim"

Genesis 5:2,
He named them Adam on the day they were created.

He named them = "vayikra et shemam"

Which is rather compellling: Adam = "ani domeh"


Ezechiel 19:10 links "dam" , blood, with "d'mut" likeness.

Your mother is like a vine in your likeness

in your likeness = בְּדָמְךָ, "b'damcha" = with your blood = wine (fruit of the vine)

Sorry, Geert, but none of this is compelling or even ever so slightly plausible to the least possible extent imaginable.

[Geert van den Bos]

Exactly my point. Geert is playing with with letters and unrelated words rather than talking about the actual meaning of the words as used by the authors of Genesis. For example, he wants to understand 'adam (אדם) as a combination of the ' (א) from 'ni (אֲנִי), meaning 'I', and the dm (דם) from the verb damah (דָּמָה), meaning 'to be like', but he also wants to use the dm (דם) from the 'adam (אדם) to mean dam or 'blood' (דָּם). Playing with words and letters to introduce different ideas, sometimes even profound ideas, can be fun, but it has nothing to do with trying to understand the words as used by the historical authors.

Genesis 5:1,
In the day that God created Adam, in the likeness of God made he him

in the likeness of God = "bid'mut elohim"

Genesis 5:2,
He named them Adam on the day they were created.

He named them = "vayikra et shemam"

Which is rather compellling: Adam = "ani domeh"


Ezechiel 19:10 links "dam" , blood, with "d'mut" likeness.

Your mother is like a vine in your likeness

in your likeness = בְּדָמְךָ, "b'damcha" = with your blood = wine (fruit of the vine)

[robrecht]

I may be misunderstanding both positions. I wouldn't argue Adam means dirt anymore than Cain means possession. Rather Adam (mankind) was named after the dirt he was made from and that he will return to.

In your analogy, TEA and ETA have no etymological relationship.

Exactly my point. Geert is playing with with letters and unrelated words rather than talking about the actual meaning of the words as used by the authors of Genesis. For example, he wants to understand 'adam (אדם) as a combination of the ' (א) from 'ni (אֲנִי), meaning 'I', and the dm (דם) from the verb damah (דָּמָה), meaning 'to be like', but he also wants to use the dm (דם) from the 'adam (אדם) to mean dam or 'blood' (דָּם). Playing with words and letters to introduce different ideas, sometimes even profound ideas, can be fun, but it has nothing to do with trying to understand the words as used by the historical authors.

[Calminian]

It's like saying beverage commonly known as 'Tea' actually means 'estimated time of arrival' because the letters of 'Tea' can be rearranged to 'ETA'.

I may be misunderstanding both positions. I wouldn't argue Adam means dirt anymore than Cain means possession. Rather Adam (mankind) was named after the dirt he was made from and that he will return to.

In your analogy, TEA and ETA have no etymological relationship.

[robrecht]

Would you be willing to offer a reason why not?

It's like saying beverage commonly known as 'Tea' actually means 'estimated time of arrival' because the letters of 'Tea' can be rearranged to 'ETA'.

[Calminian]

Do you seriously propose this as the meaning of 'adam for the biblical authors at the time when these various accounts of Genesis were being written and compiled?

Would you be willing to offer a reason why not?

[Geert van den Bos]

Do you seriously propose this as the meaning of 'adam for the biblical authors at the time when these various accounts of Genesis were being written and compiled?

Not only for the authors of Genesis, but also for the authors of NT.

Even that it is about the very essence of New Testament, the blood of the covenant.

Blood = Hebrew "dam", showing the same rootletters as Adam.

[robrecht]

there is more,

next it says
1 Corinthians 15:49

καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


εἰκών = Hebrew "tzelem"

It makes very much think of what Rashi says about "in his image", "b'tzalmo" Genesis 1:27,

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true



And next:


Adam understood as "ani domeh" (= I am like, I do resemble ) by both Rashi and Paul

See also:

http://www.hebreeuwseacademie.nl/ind...ish&pid=tradam

Do you seriously propose this as the meaning of 'adam for the biblical authors at the time when these various accounts of Genesis were being written and compiled?

[Geert van den Bos]

We don't know for sure if or how well Paul understood Hebrew, but the association of the first Adam with the dust of the earth is still there, of course. His speaking of the second or last Adam as coming from heaven does nothing to invalidate the traditional Hebrew definition/etymology/association of Adam with earth in Hebrew since 1) Paul is writing in Greek, 2) Heaven is being contrasted with earth, and thus implicitly still acknowledges the association of the first Adam with the earth, and 3) Paul is not even discussing the meaning or etymology of 'adam in Hebrew. You agree, right?

there is more,

next it says
1 Corinthians 15:49

καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


εἰκών = Hebrew "tzelem"

It makes very much think of what Rashi says about "in his image", "b'tzalmo" Genesis 1:27,

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

And next:

in the image of God He created him: It explains to you that the image that was prepared for him was the image of the likeness of his Creator.

Adam understood as "ani domeh" (= I am like, I do resemble ) by both Rashi and Paul

See also:

http://www.hebreeuwseacademie.nl/ind...ish&pid=tradam

[robrecht]

Paul

We don't know for sure if or how well Paul understood Hebrew, but the association of the first Adam with the dust of the earth is still there, of course. His speaking of the second or last Adam as coming from heaven does nothing to invalidate the traditional Hebrew definition/etymology/association of Adam with earth in Hebrew since 1) Paul is writing in Greek, 2) Heaven is being contrasted with earth, and thus implicitly still acknowledges the association of the first Adam with the earth, and 3) Paul is not even discussing the meaning or etymology of 'adam in Hebrew. You agree, right?

[Geert van den Bos]

First explain to whom "him" refers in this sentence of yours:

Writing thus implicates that, at least for him, the name Adam doesn't mean "earthling" as if derived from "adamah"

Paul

[robrecht]

please explain

First explain to whom "him" refers in this sentence of yours:

Writing thus implicates that, at least for him, the name Adam doesn't mean "earthling" as if derived from "adamah"