Revelation 22:18

[robrecht]

... It doesn't have to be "derived from the Greek."

My brother, Obsidian, since you have explained this comment in terms of my lack of willingness to understand the truth and not a lack of interest on your part in understanding the Greek text before us, I will proceed with an explanation of the Greek as I read it, but I am always open to correction or other ideas from those who can make a good case for reading the Greek more faithfully.

You would like to understand Rev 22,17-18 in the following way:

But I am postulating that everyone who wants can come drink from the water of life for free, and that if anyone tries to add any conditions to make it not free, then God will send plagues.

Καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ νύμφη λέγουσιν, ἔρχου.
καὶ ὁ ἀκούων εἰπάτω, ἔρχου.
καὶ ὁ διψῶν ἐρχέσθω, ὁ θέλων λαβέτω ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν.

Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου,
ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ᾽ αὐτά,
ἐπιθήσει ὁ θεὸς ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ,

καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης,
ἀφελεῖ ὁ θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ.ἐπ᾽ αὐτάὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν), but that is not possible in Greek because αὐτά is plural and therefore does not refer back to ὕδωρ ζωῆςcontestor ego omni audienti verba prophetiae libri huius si quis adposuerit ad haec adponet Deus super illum plagas scriptas in libro istodazu.

So, getting back to the Greek, what does the neuter plural accusative αὐτά refer to and why should we attribute to it a demonstrative sense?

Noting the importance of context, αὐτά in the Greek clearly refers back to ταῦτα Κἀγὼ Ἰωάννης ὁ ἀκούων καὶ βλέπων ταῦτα. καὶ ὅτε ἤκουσα καὶ ἔβλεψα, ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ποδῶν τοῦ ἀγγέλου τοῦ δεικνύοντός μοι ταῦτα.
I, John, (am) the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things.

Ἐγὼ Ἰησοῦς ἔπεμψα τὸν ἄγγελόν μου μαρτυρῆσαι ὑμῖν ταῦτα ἐπὶ ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις.
I, Jesus, sent my angel to you to witness to you concerning these things to the churches.
- Note the reference back to the first part of the book

Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα, ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου κύριε Ἰησοῦ.
The one testifying concerning these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen, come, Lord Jesus.

The sense is that these things prophecied in the book of Revelation are real. If you try to add to them, they will bite you. God will send down the plagues on you. These are not the type of things that one should change. It is sort of like a prophetic threat.

But the normal English is not so bad because it is practically implied by the parallelism between 22,18 and 19:

[Geert van den Bos]

but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life
ὃς δ' ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ, οὐ μὴ διψήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ τὸ ὕδωρ ὃ δώσω αὐτῷ γενήσεται ἐν αὐτῷ πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

I am convinced that it refers to Genesis 2:6, and a mist went up from the earth and watered (gave to drink) the whole face of the ground

LXX has: πηγὴ δὲ ἀνέβαινεν ἐκ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐπότιζεν πᾶν τὸ πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς

i.e. "the source" the writer of Revelation has in mind is the "mist" of Genesis 2:6, Hebrew "ed", אֵד.

The "eyeopener" in the book of Revelation being the number 666 as gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day, where is written in Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day, with which the name of God, the Tetragrammaton, appears to be present hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1 and the first two words of Genesis 2 (the name of God further being absent in teh first story of creation).
The letter "hey", that makes the difference between "yom shishi" and "yom hashishi" has the value of 5 ("hey" is the fifth letter), which again is gematria of "ed" (1+4).

Revelation 22:1 is after Ezekiel 47, 1Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east)
(...)3 Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was[B] ankle-deep. 4 Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep. 5 Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through indicating the 1-4 principle "1" is the head, "4" are the four parts of the body, the torso, the thighs, the legs, the feet.

I.e. the river has the properties of the source, it is the flowing source.
The throne of God and of the lamb being the place Genesis 1:31 - 2:1, entrance of sabbath.

cf. Revelation 13: 5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,[a] that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.[b] And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

[robrecht]

The "eyeopener" in the book of Revelation being the number 666 as gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day, where is written in Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day ...

I know I'm going to regret this.

י֥וֹם הַשִּׁשִּֽׁי

He = 5
Vav = 6
Yod 10 x 2 = 20
Mem = 40
Shin = 300 x 2 = 600

Total = 671 not 666

Disclaimer: Only in very rare instances, when the author of a book is consciously using gematria, does it have any value for understanding the intended meaning of the author. The scriptures are not magical texts.

[Geert van den Bos]

I know I'm going to regret this.

י֥וֹם הַשִּׁשִּֽׁי

He = 5
Vav = 6
Yod 10 x 2 = 20
Mem = 40
Shin = 300 x 2 = 600

Total = 671 not 666

Disclaimer: Only in very rare instances, when the author of a book is consciously using gematria, does it have any value for understanding the intended meaning of the author. The scriptures are not magical texts.

Rashi:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

the sixth day: ], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that (...)

The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".

[robrecht]

Rashi:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true



The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".

So you disagree with Rashi that the he is there for a reason? Once you start going down the road of adding or removing letters and using alternative spellings you can pretty much make the text say whatever you want it to say. To illustrate this point, in a lecture on the book of Revelation, I once 'proved' by
creative gematria, that 666 symbolized the value of 'Vice President Dan Quayle' when his name and title were written in Hebrew. I know you like Rashi--do you disregard his view of the importance of the plain meaning of Scripture, a view that eventually came to be valued by the Protestant reformers?

[robrecht]

The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".

How can you leave out the Sabbath (which also has the he)? Shame on you!

[Geert van den Bos]

So you disagree with Rashi that the he is there for a reason?

No.

Rashi:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
The same notion underlies the synoptic Gospels.

Jesus was laid in the grave on the sixth day, exactly at the beginning of the seventh (= sabbath) which was the first day of the omer count (second day of pesach), counting of 7 x 7 days until the 50th day = Pentecost = the sixth day of Sivan, i.e. the day on which God made his name, (the Tetragrammaton hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vaychulu hashamayim"), known: "I am the Lord your God, etc."

If you don't want to understand then do not understand.

[Geert van den Bos]

ἐπ᾽ αὐτάὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν), but that is not possible in Greek because αὐτά is plural and therefore does not refer back to ὕδωρ ζωῆς, which is singular.

.

cf, Revelation 21:6-7,

καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν. ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.

[John Reece]

cf, Revelation 21:6-7,

καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν. ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.

You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:

.... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....

[robrecht]

If you don't want to understand then do not understand.

Of course, I absolutely do want to understand, hence my questions to you. As the author of the text, you can best explain your intended meaning.

[robrecht]

You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:

.... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....

Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understang the above.

[Geert van den Bos]

You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:

.... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....

It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.

[John Reece]

Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understanding the above.

[robrecht]

It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.

Great! Nice to see that we agree on this point.

[Obsidian]

For what it's worth, I think that Jesus was buried on a Thursday. Currently, I think that 666 refers either to money (as in 2 Chronicles 9:13) or to Nero Caesar. But I am still working on that. And anyway, I can't figure out how either of those topics actually relates to this thread. Finally, the idea of linking the mist in Genesis to the river in Revelation does at least relate to our topic. However, the linkage seems dubious to me, because there is a great difference between mist versus a river.