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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Revelation 22:18

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Summartureo echoes sundoulos, "fellow-servant", which the angel said he was in relation to John:

    Revelation 19:9-11

    Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    Revelation 22:8-10

    8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

    The word also echoes the beginning of Rev:
    emarturesen 1.2
    marturian 1.3
    marturian 1.9

    & cf: συγκοινωνὸς in 1.9

    Witness-words occur 19 times; the idea is important to the book.

    martyreō 4
    martyria 9
    martyrion 1
    martys 5

    The ideas and themes & words of the books weave in and out of one another, and hint at and echo one another: as these quotations show.
    Witness words are indeed very important in the book, but just use μαρτυρέω instead of συμμαρτυρέω, as the later appears in no Greek mss. It was added by Erasmus, in the 16th century who translated this section from Latin into Greek because his single ms for the book of Revelation lacked the last 6 verses. Thus the prepositional connection with 19,9-11 and 22,8-10 is also not reflected in the Greek text of the author or of any of the Greek manuscripts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rushing Jaws
    replied
    Summartureo echoes sundoulos, "fellow-servant", which the angel said he was in relation to John:

    Revelation 19:9-11

    Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    Revelation 22:8-10

    8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

    The word also echoes the beginning of Rev:
    emarturesen 1.2
    marturian 1.3
    marturian 1.9

    & cf: συγκοινωνὸς in 1.9

    Witness-words occur 19 times; the idea is important to the book.

    martyreō 4
    martyria 9
    martyrion 1
    martys 5

    The ideas and themes & words of the books weave in and out of one another, and hint at and echo one another: as these quotations show.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 03-09-2014, 12:39 AM. Reason: scatter-brained

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

    I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understang the above.
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Great! Nice to see that we agree on this point.
    John has an excellent post on the book of Revelation that contains a very good understanding of Rev 1,3, which corresponds perfectly with the interpretation of Rev 21,5.7 22,8bis.16.18.20 as understood here by me and Geert (re 21,5.7). I had wanted to go into some of the correspondences between the beginning and end of the book, but did not have time. Now I don't need to! Besides, John obviously knows much more about the book of Revelation than me anyway. I just do my best to read and understand the Greek.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ll=1#post23412
    Last edited by robrecht; 03-02-2014, 09:33 AM.

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  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    For what it's worth, I think that Jesus was buried on a Thursday. Currently, I think that 666 refers either to money (as in 2 Chronicles 9:13) or to Nero Caesar. But I am still working on that. And anyway, I can't figure out how either of those topics actually relates to this thread. Finally, the idea of linking the mist in Genesis to the river in Revelation does at least relate to our topic. However, the linkage seems dubious to me, because there is a great difference between mist versus a river.
    The bible uses metaphorical language, not straightforward language like used in a newspaper or history-book.

    The "mist", Hebrew "ed", "1-4", of Genesis 2:6 is principle of time (without it nothing could grow) and also principle of speech (the bush of Genesis 2:5 is Hebrew "siach" which can also mean "speech, meditation, thought"), and also principle of resurrection, (The "ed" moistening the ground out of which Adam was formed), and also the source of the one river that divided into four heads.

    I even think that John with his "In the beginning was the word" aimed at the very word "ed".

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian
    replied
    For what it's worth, I think that Jesus was buried on a Thursday. Currently, I think that 666 refers either to money (as in 2 Chronicles 9:13) or to Nero Caesar. But I am still working on that. And anyway, I can't figure out how either of those topics actually relates to this thread. Finally, the idea of linking the mist in Genesis to the river in Revelation does at least relate to our topic. However, the linkage seems dubious to me, because there is a great difference between mist versus a river.

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.
    Great! Nice to see that we agree on this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

    I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understanding the above.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

    However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:
    .... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....
    It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

    However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:
    .... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....
    Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

    I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understang the above.
    Last edited by robrecht; 02-28-2014, 11:31 AM.

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    If you don't want to understand then do not understand.
    Of course, I absolutely do want to understand, hence my questions to you. As the author of the text, you can best explain your intended meaning.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    cf, Revelation 21:6-7,

    καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν. ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.
    You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

    However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:
    .... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....
    Last edited by John Reece; 02-28-2014, 10:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post


    The first difficulty with Obsidian’s interpretation is that it takes ‘unto these things’ (ἐπ᾽ αὐτά) as referring to ‘water of life freely’ (ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν), but that is not possible in Greek because αὐτά is plural and therefore does not refer back to ὕδωρ ζωῆς, which is singular.

    .
    cf, Revelation 21:6-7,

    καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν. ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    So you disagree with Rashi that the he is there for a reason?
    No.

    Rashi:
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
    Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]
    The same notion underlies the synoptic Gospels.

    Jesus was laid in the grave on the sixth day, exactly at the beginning of the seventh (= sabbath) which was the first day of the omer count (second day of pesach), counting of 7 x 7 days until the 50th day = Pentecost = the sixth day of Sivan, i.e. the day on which God made his name, (the Tetragrammaton hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vaychulu hashamayim"), known: "I am the Lord your God, etc."

    If you don't want to understand then do not understand.

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".
    How can you leave out the Sabbath (which also has the he)? Shame on you!
    Last edited by robrecht; 02-28-2014, 09:07 AM.

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Rashi:

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true



    The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".
    So you disagree with Rashi that the he is there for a reason? Once you start going down the road of adding or removing letters and using alternative spellings you can pretty much make the text say whatever you want it to say. To illustrate this point, in a lecture on the book of Revelation, I once 'proved' by
    creative gematria, that 666 symbolized the value of 'Vice President Dan Quayle' when his name and title were written in Hebrew. I know you like Rashi--do you disregard his view of the importance of the plain meaning of Scripture, a view that eventually came to be valued by the Protestant reformers?

    Leave a comment:

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