Is the Left Losing the Gun Control Debate?

[Cow Poke]

It's OK, I out flatted him, therefore, he's wrong.

That is just, flat out, totally not true.

That's just flat, flat, flat, flat out totally not true flat out!

[lilpixieofterror]

Or won't. Or doesn't dare.
But I'm older, not beholden to the good will of my employer, so I can tell the truth all the others dare not say. Even the Rush Limbaughs of this world, yes all those really awful AM radio talk-show hosts, will lie and lie about how it's capitalism that saves and liberalism that damns, but it's really all a matter of IQ and adrenal cortex driven discipline on the one hand (the colored problem) and on the other the ADHD, alcoholic, and mental illness proclivities of northwestern European Whites especially when distilled through half a dozen generations of migrants pushing farther and farther West.

Nothing like a little bit of racism, to make a thread a wee bit more interesting.

[Truthseeker]

Drugs could be increasing people's tendency to murder. Unfortunately the USA is awash in such drugs compared to the rest of the world.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0015337

[Rational Gaze]

Claiming "culture" is purely diversionary -- what's the relevant culture difference between the USA and Australia?

Australia is far more culturally homogenous.

France? Canada?

France and Canada have more than two times the number of guns than Australia. Yet do not have twice the murder rates.

[Rational Gaze]

I keep hearing people bring up "developed nations" but the problem with this is that there is, in fact, no objective definition. Secondly, Serbia isn't a "developed nation" according to the IMF, yet has 69.7 guns per 100 citizens but only 1.2 intentional homicides per 100,000. Going back to "developed nations" Switzerland has 45.7 guns per 100 citizens but only 0.6 intentional homicides per 100,000. That is a lower murder rate than the UK (which has 6.6 guns per 100 citizens, and 1 intentional murder per 100,000) and Australia (15 guns per 100 citizens, and 1.1 intentional homicides per 100,000.) However, Iceland has 30.3 guns per 100 citizens and has 0.3 intentional homicides per 100,000, which is the same murder rate of Japan (which has 0.6 guns per 100 citizens.)

[Sam]

I keep hearing people bring up "developed nations" but the problem with this is that there is, in fact, no objective definition. Secondly, Serbia isn't a "developed nation" according to the IMF, yet has 69.7 guns per 100 citizens but only 1.2 intentional homicides per 100,000. Going back to "developed nations" Switzerland has 45.7 guns per 100 citizens but only 0.6 intentional homicides per 100,000. That is a lower murder rate than the UK (which has 6.6 guns per 100 citizens, and 1 intentional murder per 100,000) and Australia (15 guns per 100 citizens, and 1.1 intentional homicides per 100,000.) However, Iceland has 30.3 guns per 100 citizens and has 0.3 intentional homicides per 100,000, which is the same murder rate of Japan (which has 0.6 guns per 100 citizens.)

Don't know if (or how) you missed it in the other thread but I responded pretty extensively to you on this point, citing a study that found a "strong correlation" between gun ownership in developed countries and homicide rates. In response to your charts, which used data from vastly dissimilar countries, I threw together a spreadsheet of IMF advanced economies with populations over 5 million, which also showed a following trend between gun ownership and homicides, with a few outliers:

Image 1443880669-001 JPEG.jpg

Image 1443880682-001 JPEG.jpg

[Cow Poke]

Back on topic.....

Washington (CNN)
A series of gun-related tragedies, most recently the church massacre in Charleston, has sparked a heated conversation in the United States about gun laws and the Second Amendment, leaving the country divided over personal freedoms and personal safety.

The latest polling data from both CNN/ORC and Pew Research Center concluded that there is more support to protect the ability to possess guns than to restrict gun ownership. According to a statement from Pew, this is the first time the survey data has shown this kind of trend in more than two decades.

Specifically, in December 2014, Pew Research Center released a study that stated 52 percent of Americans said it was, "more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns, while 46 percent say it is more important to control gun ownership."

According to a March 2013 CNN/ORC poll, 55 percent of Americans thought there, "should be only minor or no restrictions at all on owning guns."

In the same December 2014 poll conducted by Pew, 57 percent of Americans said gun ownership in the United States protects people, while 38 percent said gun ownership in the U.S. does more to put people's safety at risk than protect them.

Even with all the President's rhetoric, the left doesn't seem to be winning this debate.

[Rational Gaze]

Don't know if (or how) you missed it in the other thread but I responded pretty extensively to you on this point, citing a study that found a "strong correlation" between gun ownership in developed countries and homicide rates. In response to your charts, which used data from vastly dissimilar countries, I threw together a spreadsheet of IMF advanced economies with populations over 5 million, which also showed a following trend between gun ownership and homicides, with a few outliers:

You do realise I refuted this in the very post you are responding to, right?

Although one additional point (that you apparently keep ignoring) is that there is no similarity between these "developed" nations other than their place in the IMF advanced economies list (which is still pretty arbitrary.)

[Sam]

You do realise I refuted this in the very post you are responding to, right?

Although one additional point (that you apparently keep ignoring) is that there is no similarity between these "developed" nations other than their place in the IMF advanced economies list (which is still pretty arbitrary.)

[Rational Gaze]

I found a complete list of nations that, according to the IMF, have "advanced economies" and then compiled the gun and murder data:

United States: 88.8 guns per 100, 4.7 intentional homicides per 100,000
Switzerland: 45.7 guns per 100, 0.6 intentional homicides per 100,000
Cyprus: 36.2 guns per 100, 2 intentional homicides per 100,000
Sweden: 31.6 guns per 100, 0.7 intentional homicides per 100,000
Norway: 31.3 guns per 100, 2.2 intentional homicides per 100,000
France: 31.2 guns per 100, 1 intentional homicide per 100,000
Canada: 30.8 guns per 100, 1.6 intentional homicides per 100,000
Austria: 30.4 guns per 100, 0.9 intentional homicides per 100,000
Iceland: 30.8 guns per 100, 0.3 intentional homicides per 100,000
Germany: 30.8 guns per 100, 0.8 intentional homicides per 100,000
Finland: 29.1 guns per 100, 1.6 intentional homicides per 100,000
New Zealand: 22.6 guns per 100, 0.9 intentional homicides per 100,000
Greece: 22.5 per 100, 1.7 intentional homicides per 100,000
Latvia: 19 guns per 100, 4.7 intentional homicides per 100,000
Belgium: 17.2 guns per 100, 1.6 intentional homicides per 100,000
Czech Republic: 16.3 guns per 100, 1 intentional homicides per 100,000
Luxembourg: 15.3 guns per 100, 0.8 intentional homicides per 100,000
Australia: 15 guns per 100, 1.1 intentional homicides per 100,000
Slovenia: 13.5 guns per 100, 0.7 intentional homicides per 100,000
Denmark: 12 guns per 100, 0.8 intentional homicides per 100,000
Italy: 11.9 guns per 100, 0.9 intentional homicides per 100,000
Malta: 11.9 guns per 100, 2.8 intentional homicides per 100,000
Spain: 10.4 guns per 100, 0.8 intentional homicides per 100,000
Estonia: 9.2 guns per 100, 5 intentional homicides per 100,000
Portugal: 8.5 guns per 100, 1.2 intentional homicides per 100,000
Slovakia: 8.3 guns per 100, 1.4 intentional homicides per 100,000
Israel: 7.3 guns per 100, 1.8 intentional homicides per 100,000
United Kingdom: 6.6 guns per 100, 1 intentional homicide per 100,000
Ireland: 4.3 guns per 100, 1.2 intentional homicides per 100,000
Netherlands: 3.9 guns per 100, 0.9 intentional homicides per 100,000
Lithuania: 0.7 guns per 100, 6.7 intentional homicides per 100,000
South Korea: 1.1 guns per 100, 0.9 intentional homicides per 100,000
Japan: 0.6 guns per 100, 0.3 intentional homicides per 100,000
Singapore: 0.5 guns per 100, 0.2 intentional homicides per 100,000

Picture version:
Guns per 100 = blue line
Intentional homicide per 100,000 = red line
12108049_10153152836768837_4687502825202985291_n.jpg

[Rational Gaze]

And now you're trying to argue that the USA is as dissimilar to [France, Italy, UK, Australia, etc.] as to [Chile, Yemen, Sudan, Brazil, etc.]? Good heavens.

You clearly have never travelled very widely.

[Cow Poke]

You clearly have never travelled very widely.

He needs to get the international version of the liberal talking points.

[Starlight]

I found a complete list of nations that, according to the IMF, have "advanced economies" and then compiled the gun and murder data:
...

Picture version:
Guns per 100 = blue line
Intentional homicide per 100,000 = red line
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10451[/ATTACH]

Your data point for the US on the red line is plotted in the wrong place. It ought to be about twice as high up the Y-axis. Not sure how you managed to screw that up.

[Rational Gaze]

I goofed slightly with the last graph. There was a typo in the data for one of the data points, so the graph is off slightly. New graph:
12112225_10153152928813837_7719442115938037437_n.jpg

[Adam]

Graphs can be interesting, even revealing.
Most obviously it proves that Mongoloid people (Japan, South Korea, and Singapore) are not violent, don't want to kill people and don't get guns.
The Baltic countries, on the other hand, show the long-lasting effects of totalitarian oppression, Estonia and Latvia have many guns but have no more homicides than similarly ethnic Nordic Lithuania that has almost no guns. Probably the effect of criminal gangs for which the former Soviet countries are noted: Albania, Ukraine, and Russia itself, all too backward to be on the chart, but probably high in homicides.
Next lowest in homicides are Nordic countries Iceland, Sweden, Norway (after adjusting down for the mass-killing of 80+), and Denmark in spite of having up to 100 times more guns than Japan. Can we argue here for placidity arising from homogenous populaces? Or... (no, unthinkable)
As for most of the countries on the graph, the homicide rate is higher, but not much higher. One could argue for the disturbing effects of mixed ethnicities (religion, language, race, or other culture) or by comparison to the two main centers of low homicides (Mongoloids and Nordics).
Have I said too much already?