Another Christian Baker Under The Fascist Thumb

[tabibito]

No we don't, we disagree with you, and debate the issues with you, but we don't care so much as to discriminate against you because of your beliefs or lifestyles. When is the last time you heard of a non-believer refusing to serve a christian simply because they don't believe in christianity and its beliefs. As a matter of fact, other than the occassional racist, do you ever hear of anyone other than a christian discriminating in that way? I haven't.

When was the last time that a Muslim or Jew refused to bake a cake for a christening? Never?
Christians aren't wont go to places that have religious objections to our practices and demand that the proprietor fulfil a commission.
If a Christian did get refused a commission by such a baker and complained about it - people would be quite justified in asking, "what is wrong with you?"

For a Christian baker to refuse to sell stock items to people on grounds of their lifestyle or religious beliefs would be a matter for complaint. But no-one should be forced to accept a commission to provide a particular service - commissions aren't a matter of public trade - they are private contracts.

[Starlight]

So if a Christian walks into a bakery run by an atheist and asks for a cake with a cross on it for an Easter service, and the atheist doesn't like the cross or the religious aspects of Easter, he would be required to bake that cake with joy, yes?

Of course. Joy optional.

I'm not even sure he understands the concept of "Christian".

Well when I was a Christian here, I regarded most US Christians as Not True Christians due to their complete failure to understand even the basic message of the bible. That attitude is probably pretty widespread here. Kiwimac's signature line suggests he shares that view. Similarly, my father, who when I was a Christian I regarded as too conservative for my tastes, was talking yesterday about listening to Brian McLaren speak, and McLaren had basically said that Christianity in the US was beyond saving due to the alliance it has made with anti-Christian right-wing political/economic views.

[JimL]

When was the last time that a Muslim or Jew refused to bake a cake for a christening? Never?

Well, why don't you tell me?

Christians aren't wont go to places that have religious objections to our practices and demand that the proprietor fulfil a commission.

Of course they will, they do it all the time, and the proprietor doesn't. and by law can not, discriminate against them.

If a Christian did get refused a commission by such a baker and complained about it - people would be quite justified in asking, "what is wrong with you?"

No they wouldn't. The christian would have every right to complain.

For a Christian baker to refuse to sell stock items to people on grounds of their lifestyle or religious beliefs would be a matter for complaint. But no-one should be forced to accept a commission to provide a particular service - commissions aren't a matter of public trade - they are private contracts.

Really, is that how the anti-discrimination law works? I think you better look that one up. For one thing, baking and selling a cake is no more of a private contract than selling their stocked items. That is part of their public business operations.

[Starlight]

No, no joke. I don't judge whether or not to associate with someone because of their religious beliefs. I might think their beliefs are wrong headed, and I might debate those issues with them, but i don't treat them any differently than i would anyone else.

Presumably the incredulous responses you're getting are projection. A lot of US Christians seem to enthusiastically want to discriminate against atheists... 7 States still have official legal bans on atheists running for office on their books (that are self-evidently unconstitutional), and polling across the US shows that the demographic of politician people are least likely to vote for is an 'atheist', which polls well below even things like 'muslim' or 'gay'. So people in this forum are presumably thinking "well, yeah, of course as a Christian I would discriminate against atheists, so the atheists must all want to discriminate against Christians". Which is obviously wrong, since most atheists don't care at all if other people are religious or not.

About half my family are Christian and about half my friends are, and it makes no difference whatsoever to me.

With one exception... if someone's religious beliefs lead them to actively advocate for taking away the rights of others, then I will cease associating with them. But that's only happened to 2 people in my entire life (once when I was a Christian and once when I was an atheist), and it's not their religion I was objecting to, but the obnoxious way they attempted to hurt other people that I objected to.

[tabibito]

Of course they will, they do it all the time,

Surely you jest ... then again, maybe some would. It is not as though the churches are entirely free of people who like to make trouble for others.

and the proprietor doesn't. and by law can not, discriminate against them.

Oh - the law says it - must be perfectly acceptable then. I'm sure the "Freedom Riders" and their supporters would agree with you on that.

No they wouldn't. The christian would have every right to complain.

Well, it seems that they would have a legal right to complain anyway. the law says it ....

Really, is that how the anti-discrimination law works? I think you better look that one up. For one thing, baking and selling a cake is no more of a private contract than selling their stocked items. That is part of their public business operations.

Ah, a commission to bake a particular cake isn't a private contract ... quaint notion. But it does get around the whole "A person has the right to choose for whom he will work" objection.

[mossrose]

Of course. Joy optional.

Well when I was a Christian here, I regarded most US Christians as Not True Christians due to their complete failure to understand even the basic message of the bible. That attitude is probably pretty widespread here. Kiwimac's signature line suggests he shares that view. Similarly, my father, who when I was a Christian I regarded as too conservative for my tastes, was talking yesterday about listening to Brian McLaren speak, and McLaren had basically said that Christianity in the US was beyond saving due to the alliance it has made with anti-Christian right-wing political/economic views.

I don't believe you were ever a Christian. I don't believe Sam is a Christian, and I have doubts about kiwi mac.

Were you on Tweb before? Who were you?

Christianity in the developed world is in trouble because it has become lukewarm and will not preach the entirety of scripture, but gives the weak and non-Christians what they want to hear instead.

Sin, repentance and a life lived in obedience to God are not taught, and the result is a church that melds itself to the culture, accepting and calling good that which God calls an abomination.

[Jedidiah]

I am still wondering why there are no lawsuits against muslim owned bakeries for refusing to make a cake for a homosexual wedding.