Social Justice?

[Paprika]

Which was in several different forms Sam, but you have not proved that people would not take the jubilee into account, when making their deals and transactions to begin with. Your assumption doesn't seem to hold up to logic or history, at all. If there was a jubilee coming up in a few years, would you loan out your money, to just lose it? I sure wouldn't want to do such a thing without some good reason to do it. Did you ever think about that assumption? That the system might of been designed to discourage a debt based economy because it discouraged that sort of behavior to start with?

"Do not refuse to lend them something, just because the year when debts are canceled is near. Do not let such an evil thought enter your mind. If you refuse to make the loan, they will cry out to the Lord against you, and you will be held guilty."

Of course people would take it into account, which is why there was such a severe injunction against not loaning money for this very reason. God isn't stupid.

[Jedidiah]

So even though I gave you an example of Jesus practicing a form of "take this from one person and give it to another", nothing short of direct verbalization by Jesus would change your mind on the matter. Is that correct?

I missed this. Can you give me Chapter and verse?

[lilpixieofterror]

"Do not refuse to lend them something, just because the year when debts are canceled is near. Do not let such an evil thought enter your mind. If you refuse to make the loan, they will cry out to the Lord against you, and you will be held guilty."

Of course people would take it into account, which is why there was such a severe injunction against not loaning money for this very reason. God isn't stupid.

Psst, who said anything about refusing to make a loan? Here is what the verse says, my dear Pap:

"Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin."
Deut 15:9, NIV

Being careful with your money doesn't equal not helping your neighbor.

[Paprika]

Psst, who said anything about refusing to make a loan?

You.

If there was a jubilee coming up in a few years, would you loan out your money, to just lose it? I sure wouldn't want to do such a thing without some good reason to do it.

[lilpixieofterror]

You.

"...without some good reason to do it."

Try again Papster.

[Adrift]

If they are able to work and try to work. That works for me.

How much food would 12 people end up taking, from a field? Would a farmer even notice this? Besides, their argument doesn't seem to be so much directed at the 'theft' as it is directed at 'working on the sabbath'.

While its probably accurate to assume that only Jesus and the 12 were picking through the field on the Sabbath, you need to keep in mind that all of the poor had this right on any other day of the week. And I agree that the Pharisee's issue wasn't so much the gleaning, which was lawful for Jesus and his disciples to do, but instead that they were "working" on the Sabbath. And here "work" isn't necessarily hard manual labor. Healing the sick on the Sabbath was considered "work" to the Pharisees.

[Paprika]

"...without some good reason to do it."

Which God has provided, as I demonstrated. Dumbass.

[lilpixieofterror]

While its probably accurate to assume that only Jesus and the 12 were picking through the field on the Sabbath, you need to keep in mind that all of the poor had this right on any other day of the week. And I agree that the Pharisee's issue wasn't so much the gleaning, which was lawful for Jesus and his disciples to do, but instead that they were "working" on the Sabbath. And here "work" isn't necessarily hard manual labor. Healing the sick on the Sabbath was considered "work" to the Pharisees.

Work doesn't have to be hard manual labor, but as I recall... the belief of the time was absolutely no work, but the bare min, was to be accomplished during the sabbath.

[lilpixieofterror]

Which God has provided, as I demonstrated. Dumbass.

No, you demonstrated you can't read papster, but don't worry. I'll help you along with this and help you see why you are wrong again. First here is the verse in question:

Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
Deut 15:9, NIV

Sorry, but helping your neighbor in need isn't quite the same as loaning out money to others. Try again or you could just do your usual routine where you stuff words down peoples throats and make them say things Papster thinks they said. That might make what you say more true, right?

[Paprika]

No, you demonstrated you can't read papster, but don't worry. I'll help you along with this and help you see why you are wrong again. First here is the verse in question:

Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
Deut 15:9, NIV

Sorry, but helping your neighbor in need isn't quite the same as loaning out money to others. Try again or you could just do your usual routine where you stuff words down peoples throats and make them say things Papster thinks they said. That might make what you say more true, right?

Golly, why does this verse discuss about the "year of cancelling debts" as possible motivation not to give? And why are you omitting the preceding verse?

If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.

Oh wait, it's lilpix

[Adrift]

Traditionally, such people depended on their families and friends. I tend to believe family should take care of one another and I sure wouldn't have an issue with doing this, for a family member that needs some extra help. In fact, I do have a relative that does and we do pitch in to help. There's a world of difference between the ability to work, but doesn't and an inability to work and can't.

In ancient times we see examples of whole families suffering from some debilitating disease like leprosy or plague, and even then I imagine there were some unfortunate souls who had no family to ask for help. Orphans, freed slaves, and those who's family members died of the harsh living environs one might find in the ancient near east. And of course, there are plenty of people sleeping out on the streets right now who have no one to call home to.

Perhaps a hand full, but they would likely not be saying much due to the social stigma against what they are saying. If you're raised with those ideas, than it becomes second nature. Today, I wouldn't think of such a law just because we are not an agrarian society anymore and could be many miles from the nearest farm. A work program, where you do X job for Y pay, would be a better solution for us.

So something like Roosevelt's New Deal program.

[Darth Executor]

I saw an aerial fight between some pigeons today. One of them divebombed the other and the target smacked into a truck and dropped dead on the road. I dunno why pixie's posts reminded me of that just now.

[lilpixieofterror]

I saw an aerial fight between some pigeons today. One of them divebombed the other and the target smacked into a truck and dropped dead on the road. I dunno why pixie's posts reminded me of that just now.

Much like your post remind me of the same thing.

[Adrift]

I missed this. Can you give me Chapter and verse?

Mark 2:23

[Paprika]

Gleaning law in the Torah works in this way: the field of crops may "belong" to you, but you're commanded to leave some for the poor; you have to give up ownership of some of your 'property'.