No Room At The Inn?

[Darth Executor]

I've been accused of being just combative, so I produce post and evidence that shows that I'm not just combative.

You sound pretty insecure.

[pancreasman]

I think what we have here might be a theological problem or difference of emphasis. Darth, Pap, Epo et al find their theological purpose in the metaphor of battle and warfare or 'fighting'. Darth says that is what he is here for. There certainly are some theological justifications for this although most, but not all, are in the OT.

OTOH, with Jesus, supposedly the supreme revelation of the nature of God, we find a quite different emphasis. The early church, as recorded in the letters, also were obviously encouraged to operate out of this new paradigm. And that's what I think it is, a new paradigm of relationship. The Old Covenant was based on obedience and judgement, while the new one is based on mercy and forgiveness. Not exclusively of course. Elements of both 'ways' may be found in both, but I propose there is a distince shift in emphasis between the two.

Thus, to be meek and mild at all times (even here) is a theological error imo, to be combative and disdainful at all times (even here) is also an error.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

2 Cor 2:6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love;

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Eph 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

Eph 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Phil 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,

Mat 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Eph 4: 29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up*according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ah, a new one. Only because you're new to the party:

That I choose not to swat a fly does not imply that I am unable to do so. The topic of the debate is about the meaning of "slave", not "Is Paprika just combative?" I simply can't be bothered to answer most of CP's, Adrift's, and pancreasman's red herrings, as there is no benefit to be accrued from doing so.

Fly swatting is a metaphor for an aggressive action there pap and it is a valid question. What do you have to refute their 'red herring'? Anything at all?

Those who have read my posts or choose to look up my post history will know the truth; I couldn't care less whether you or others think otherwise. That you or others care about not appearing to be "just combative" doesn't imply that I care or should care.

I've read this thread twice, just to make sure I wasn't missing anything and they do have points on the 'slave' thing too. See, good writing writes to the audience and not to another audience. The Bible was not written to a 21st century western audience, so it isn't going to have the same connotations of 'slavery' that a 21st century western audience would have. In our past, the forum slavery took was one in which people were bought and sold as property and treated as such. That mental image is ingrained into our cultural psyche, so that would mean that you need to be aware of this when you write to a 21st century western audience. A better term, that the law would see our children in, as being dependent or attached to their parents. I do think Epo was right that breaking up families is more traumatic than deporting him (so he was right there), but his wording was not the best. Something you three continue to miss. Words do have both a definition and a connotation, this is basic stuff that you learn you English and public speaking classes. Did you not take those courses, in college pap? I did and I specifically remember that connotation was a very important thing to considering when choosing your words.

[lilpixieofterror]

You sound pretty insecure.

Another barb? You know, if you want to actually refute what was said... proving that what was said is dead accurate isn't usually the best way to go about things.

[lilpixieofterror]

True, but it seems sometimes people use that as excuse to be combative ALL or a vast MAJORITY of the time. Some of our Mormon friends used that justification to be on the warpath, and I have used it as well.

True, combat seems to be the minority of Jesus' ministry, so it likely is not going to be the majority of ours. I will grant that tWeb is a debate web site and will attract those who might need a more combative approach, but it shouldn't be our primary or main approach. I think the fact neither of them are able to produce even one example to show otherwise is pretty telling...

When you're honestly trying to see the "value" in somebody that others seem to see, and you get further confirmation of your own assessment of their hostility, yeah.... you wonder where is the offset.

Good questions to ponder.

[lilpixieofterror]

Speaking of which, I have a wedding this afternoon and I need a shirt ironed.

You're married and have daughters, let me help you out with that:

1. Make sure you have a package of frozen veggies in the freezer (this will be important in a minute).
2. Grab your shirt, an iron, and an ironing board.
3. Walk into a room where your wife and daughters are gathered.
4. Tell them what you told me.
5. Use the package of frozen veggies (that you confirmed was in the freezer) to help with the injuries you sustained with being beat with an ironing board, while having an iron thrown at you.
6. Iron your shirt yourself.

Well, at least your shirt got ironed by somebody.

[shunyadragon]

So I guess, according to the President, Christians should accept illegal immigrants and welcome them in.



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...cutive-Amnesty

We all descended from immigrants. It has only been recently that we made immigration illegal, unless of course, you have the money to buy your way in..

[robrecht]

True, combat seems to be the minority of Jesus' ministry, so it likely is not going to be the majority of ours. I will grant that tWeb is a debate web site and will attract those who might need a more combative approach, but it shouldn't be our primary or main approach. I think the fact neither of them are able to produce even one example to show otherwise is pretty telling...

Good questions to ponder.

If TWeb were to be a debate forum, there would need to be more rules and much more strict moderation, judging, point scoring, etc. More importantly, in a true debate, the participants should be willing and able to argue both sides of a point in order increase one's understanding of all perspectives on an issue. I think of TWeb as more of a discussion site, 'though not always a civil one.

[Paprika]

Fly swatting is a metaphor for an aggressive action there pap and it is a valid question. What do you have to refute their 'red herring'? Anything at all?

Suppose I don't. Now what?

I've read this thread twice, just to make sure I wasn't missing anything and they do have points on the 'slave' thing too. See, good writing writes to the audience and not to another audience. The Bible was not written to a 21st century western Yankee audience, so it isn't going to have the same connotations of 'slavery' that a 21st century western Yankee audience would have.

Fixed. I'm pretty sure Europeans aren't as angsty as you Yanks about slavery.

In our past, the forum form slavery took was one in which people were bought and sold as property and treated as such. That mental image is ingrained into our cultural psyche, so that would mean that you need to be aware of this when you write to a 21st century western Yankee audience. A better term, that the law would see use to describe our children in, as is being dependent or attached to their parents. I do think Epo was right that breaking up families is more traumatic than deporting him them (so he was right there), but his wording was not the best. This is Ssomething you three continue to miss. Words do have both a definition and a connotation,; this is basic stuff that you learn you in English and public speaking classes. Did you not take those courses , in college pap? I did and I specifically remember that connotation was a very important thing to considering consider when choosing your words.

(emphases mine)
If you're going to lecture someone else on proper usage of English, at the very least make sure there is no error in your own.

[Cow Poke]

True, combat seems to be the minority of Jesus' ministry, so it likely is not going to be the majority of ours.

EGGzackly. And Paul FREQUENTLY discusses the need for UNITY in the Church, and speaks out against "combat" between members.

[rogue06]

We all descended from immigrants. It has only been recently that we made immigration illegal, unless of course, you have the money to buy your way in..

Apparently you aren't very familiar with history.

Take a look at the Chinese Exclusion Act passed in 1882 and not repealed until the 1940s^[1]. It mandated an absolute 10-year moratorium on Chinese "skilled and unskilled laborers and Chinese employed in mining" from entering the country. And Chinese immigrants already living in the country could not leave and then return without first obtaining certifications. In 1902 further restrictions were added that required every Chinese resident to register and obtain a certificate of residence without which they faced deportation.

During the 1880s Congress passed a number of laws restricting immigration denying entrance to anyone deemed to be undesirable. Ellis Island (established as an immigration inspection, detention and deportation station in 1892) turned away a thousand people a month during peak immigration years because they wheezed, coughed, shuffled, or limped as they climbed the steep stairs^[2]1. Although it limited immigration to 105 Chinese a year and that wasn't repealed until the 1960s!

2. The idea was to exclude those that were "likely to become a public charge." This became a serious burden on Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi control in Germany during the 1930s and 40s, most of whom had lost everything and might be in need of some government assistance after they immigrated to the U.S.

[Darth Executor]

We all descended from immigrants. It has only been recently that we made immigration illegal, unless of course, you have the money to buy your way in..

I was gonna write a serious reply to this idiotic post but then I saw who wrote it.

[Darth Executor]

I think what we have here might be a theological problem or difference of emphasis. Darth, Pap, Epo et al find their theological purpose in the metaphor of battle and warfare or 'fighting'. Darth says that is what he is here for. There certainly are some theological justifications for this although most, but not all, are in the OT.

OTOH, with Jesus, supposedly the supreme revelation of the nature of God, we find a quite different emphasis. The early church, as recorded in the letters, also were obviously encouraged to operate out of this new paradigm. And that's what I think it is, a new paradigm of relationship. The Old Covenant was based on obedience and judgement, while the new one is based on mercy and forgiveness. Not exclusively of course. Elements of both 'ways' may be found in both, but I propose there is a distince shift in emphasis between the two.

Thus, to be meek and mild at all times (even here) is a theological error imo, to be combative and disdainful at all times (even here) is also an error.

This is how Marcionism got started.

[Darth Executor]

If TWeb were to be a debate forum, there would need to be more rules and much more strict moderation, judging, point scoring, etc.

Only in formal debates.

More importantly, in a true debate, the participants should be willing and able to argue both sides of a point in order increase one's understanding of all perspectives on an issue.

Yeah that's what people do in debates. They argue both sides of a point.

[Darth Executor]

EGGzackly. And Paul FREQUENTLY discusses the need for UNITY in the Church, and speaks out against "combat" between members.

Then I guess you should stop picking unnecessary fights with other Christians.