It's Confirmed, Men Are Pigs!

[Bill the Cat]

I think you are the only person who calls what I said stereotyping.

And I think you are flat out wrong. You made a generalization about men in NYC on the street. That's the classic definition of stereotyping

stereotype
/ˈstɛrɪəˌtaɪp; ˈstɪər-/
- a set of inaccurate, simplistic generalizations about a group that allows others to categorize them and treat them accordingly

We all do.

And since we disagree, you win, right?

[Psychic Missile]

Ok, but I asked you how catcalling is objectifying, so this is a non-answer.

It's an expression of the patriarchal power structure via policing women in public and reiterating dominance and a woman's role as an aesthetic object to be owned by men.

They may or may not be fools but you avoided answering the actual question.

I feel I have answered the question. You feel I didn't. It's not central to the discussion so I want to drop it.

[Psychic Missile]

Sorry, but that is just how you come across. If that isn't what you are trying to say, you might want to re read your post and change up your phrasing.

Let me state my position plainly then. Any introduction a man makes to a woman isn't harassment. Sometimes the things a man says to a woman are harassment (whether she thinks they are or not). It depends upon the context of what is being said.

[Psychic Missile]

And I think you are flat out wrong. You made a generalization about men in NYC on the street. That's the classic definition of stereotyping

stereotype
/ˈstɛrɪəˌtaɪp; ˈstɪər-/
- a set of inaccurate, simplistic generalizations about a group that allows others to categorize them and treat them accordingly

I disagree. I have spoken of what is typical and I came to a determination about the intentions of the men in the video, but I don't think I've generalized anyone.

And since we disagree, you win, right?

Since we disagree, when it comes to the issue of harassment and whether the men in the video harassed the woman, nobody wins.

[lilpixieofterror]

Let me state my position plainly then. Any introduction a man makes to a woman isn't harassment. Sometimes the things a man says to a woman are harassment (whether she thinks they are or not). It depends upon the context of what is being said.

And I'm sorry PM, but again... I prefer to assume the best about others, but it appears you do not.

[fm93]

I like the analysis that square_peg did to show that yes, most of their hellos were not just greetings, and it's easy to tell that from their tone and their body language.

Saw this parody of the response to this video mocking the lady for making such a big fuss of such greetings: "Dudes Greet Dudes."



Examples people came up with on twiter:





Their point:

Thank you, and thank you again for sharing your experience earlier as well as the article. I do think it makes some good points. I'm tempted to do a counter-experiment in which a gay man walks near a woman (but not close enough that people would think he's with her), and whenever other men cat-call or harass her, the gay man walks near them and says similar things. That ought to reveal how men feel, and whether their words were truly meant as a mere greeting.

[fm93]

So again, you have magical mind reading powers and base your entire judgment upon 3 words.

No, I based it on the tone and vocal inflection by which he spoke those words. Sort of like how you can listen to a certain way in which a person says "I'm alright" to realize that he/she might NOT, in fact, be alright.

Sure it does because it exposes your tendency to see the worst in others. Many of these interactions could just as easily be interpreted as some guys really need to learn to talk to women. The phrase, "Hello beautiful" isn't a problem for men to say to their wives or girl friends, but shouldn't be said to women you don't know. Some guys may not actually know this or think about this (imagine that, men speaking before they think... who'd of thought that was possible ). Their intentions are not evil, their phrase is just off. Why do you automatically want to see the worst in others instead of seeing other possible answers, such as this? This highlights a problem with your type, you spend so much time obsessing over some sort of pretend slight, you don't see the other possible answers in the proper light. Funny, I thought the Bible said something about the wise overlooking an insult, but fools show their annoyance at once. I could think of several situations that I could easily have found offense, but I decided against it and instead choose that I was dealing with a guy that didn't know how to talk to a woman.

I decided to focus on this paragraph (especially the bolded part) because I believe that it highlights a crucial difference in understanding. I have NEVER said that these men were all evil. Some may have had evil intentions, but I believe that most of them are basically decent people. HOWEVER, their intention is IRRELEVANT given the ultimate result of their actions. It is inappropriate to say things to a woman that make her feel intimidated or harassed or objectified, and that's clearly how their words made that woman feel. It's also not a stretch to see how those statements could make her feel that way. Heartablaze, for instance, evidently agreed with my analysis. Harassment is harassment, regardless of the motives. If a male college student had sex with a female college student who was passed out drunk but he honestly believed that it was okay or genuinely thought she had given consent, his innocent intentions do not change the fact that he committed rape. No matter what his reasons were, the end result is that he violated her, which is immoral. That might be an extreme example, but it illustrates my point.

Likewise, when I claim that racism is present in certain situations, I'm not saying that the people involved behind it are evil. I don't presume to know their minds or hearts. But the end result is that people of different races are being treated or viewed unequally, and it is wrong to treat or view people of different races unequally, regardless of the intention. Whether an employer refused to hire a qualified black man named Tayshaun Washington because he simply felt unfamiliar with the name or because he consciously hates black people doesn't matter. If his motive was the former, it might be easier for Tayshaun to personally forgive him, but the fact remains that he's committed a wrong by discriminating along racial lines.

Wouldn't you agree that reality means that you can't control everybody and jerks are going to exist everywhere, but you shouldn't view others in the same light? Why do you have this tendency to see others in such a horrible light? Why can't other possible answers, be at work? I do notice that not all men know how to talk to women and this can easily be any guy, no matter the age. Should I be a jerk to them and treat them with what I think they are acting as or should I assume they have the best intentions, until proved otherwise? This exposes a lot about your, your majesty. Your tendency to see the worst in others. Quite a sad way to live, IMO that is..

No, because as I've explained, I'm not judging these people's intentions. To the contrary, I'm completely ignoring their intentions. What I'm judging is their ACTIONS, which in this case have been shown to cause discomfort, which is problematic and therefore must be addressed.

Wear your wedding ring and the problem stops, but again... so what? What is necessarily wrong with that picture? Can you please explain why it is automatically wrong for guys to attempt to get to know women around them? After all, following what you are saying, it seems my significant other would have been 'cat calling' and it appears I should of been angry.

Earlier it seemed that you were arguing that those interactions weren't cat-calling, but now it seems that you're arguing that cat-calling isn't always wrong. I suppose you could try to make a case that it's not automatically wrong, but guys shouldn't try to accomplish it by saying things like "Damn!" or "Sexy" to complete strangers. Also, no one is trying to prescribe to you what to feel. The issue is that the sort of thing you personally were okay with makes many OTHER women feel uncomfortable, so men must therefore be careful about word choice and actions. You didn't mind hearing "Hey beautiful, how you doing" from a complete stranger? Good for you. But in regard to the women who do mind, the man has done something wrong, even if he didn't intend anything malicious. Yes, this does mean that the woman's subjective interpretation is a factor. However, Sparko was complaining that women could arbitrarily decide that literally anything is harassment, which is a ridiculous claim to make, because many of the interactions in the video are clearly more questionable than that.

[Paprika]

Some helpful analysis:

[Sparko]

Let me specify: everyone decides what constitutes harassment through discussion.

so if most people decide that catcalling isn't harassment, then it isn't?

[Zymologist]

It's an expression of the patriarchal power structure via policing women in public and reiterating dominance and a woman's role as an aesthetic object to be owned by men.

Does this mean that men cannot, by definition, be catcalled (see DE's video earlier in the thread)?

[fm93]

so if most people decide that catcalling isn't harassment, then it isn't?

No, then it simply becomes a sort of crude objectification.

But come on. As I explained earlier, it's easy to understand why many of the interactions in the video could be considered harassment. It's not as arbitrary as a woman deciding that any form of hello is harassment.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post116308

Does this mean that men cannot, by definition, be catcalled (see DE's video earlier in the thread)?

They could be, but generally men are in the position of power. That's why I'm curious as to what would happen if we had a gay man (or someone pretending to be gay) follow those men around and cat-call them.

[Sparko]

No, then it simply becomes a sort of crude objectification.

So how do you know if that is not the case now? All you know of are a few vocal feminists and girly men who are afraid to hold a door open for a women. How do you know that most of the world doesn't believe that catcalling is just fine? If so, then it isn't harassment according to your admission. And if harassment is determined by popular opinion, then so would what constitutes "crude objectification" right?

But come on. As I explained earlier, it's easy to understand why many of the interactions in the video could be considered harassment. It's not as arbitrary as a woman deciding that any form of hello is harassment.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post116308

well according to you your opinion doesn't count, other than as a drop in a bucket of water. So why should I care what you think or consider harassment? And I was talking to Psychic Missile about this, not you. so shoo.

[Psychic Missile]

so if most people decide that catcalling isn't harassment, then it isn't?

Yes, with a caveat. There's two things being decided there: what constitutes harassment as far as society is concerned, in which case it is a majority rules issue, and what constitutes harassment from an academic perspective, in which case poor ideas will fall by the wayside and the idea with the best support will be supported by the majority.

[Psychic Missile]

Does this mean that men cannot, by definition, be catcalled (see DE's video earlier in the thread)?

I don't think so. Men can be objectified.

[lilpixieofterror]

No, I based it on the tone and vocal inflection by which he spoke those words. Sort of like how you can listen to a certain way in which a person says "I'm alright" to realize that he/she might NOT, in fact, be alright.

Or, they end up actually being alright and you're just reading things that may not even be there. Believe it or not, both answers are quite possible. We're not mind readers (no matter how much you pretend you are).

I decided to focus on this paragraph (especially the bolded part) because I believe that it highlights a crucial difference in understanding.

No, it highlights what is wrong with you and your views. You want to see the worst in others while I don't. You have given no reason, what so ever, to actually see the worst in others and have actually exposed that is your tendency. Quite sad, if you ask me.

I have NEVER said that these men were all evil. Some may have had evil intentions, but I believe that most of them are basically decent people. HOWEVER, their intention is IRRELEVANT given the ultimate result of their actions.

Unless they are plotting rape or murder, I highly doubt any of them have those sort of evil intentions. Also what are the results of their actions? Can you actually name a single bad thing that actually happened as a result of their actions? Anything at all? Did western civilization come falling apart? No? Did civil disturbance happen where lots of people got hurt? No? Did anybody end up getting hurt as a result of their actions? No? Oh, I know what happened, lots of feminazi's and overly sensitive men got their panties in a wad over a heavily edited video, which doesn't project minority men in the best of light (you know, that thing you keep fighting against, I guess sexism trumps racism, eh?). Gosh, such horror or will stuff like this lead to the total destruction of western civilization; as we know it?

It is inappropriate to say things to a woman that make her feel intimidated or harassed or objectified, and that's clearly how their words made that woman feel.

I'm sorry, your majesty, but if this is all it takes to give you a bad day... you must have a pretty easy life. Let me see, there's millions of women, around the world, who don't have access to basic education because their society says women shouldn't be educated. Millions of women, around the world, are made into sex slaves to serve the whims of evil men. Millions of women, around the world, are denied basic health care and have their bodies mutated by evil men. Gosh, and the worst I have to deal with is the possibility of somebody telling me "Hey beautiful" on the street corner. You love to highlight first world problems and pretend they are huge problems, eh your majesty? Now, when stuff like that starts happening, I would consider their intentions evil, but if that is the extent of the 'bad stuff' you're talking about. I think I'll count myself lucky and just brush it off if somebody decides to say something to me along those lines. Just one of the natural consequences of living in a free society and nothing that should really have me up in arms. Considering the state that many women, across the world, current live in. I do hope that one day, that ends up being the extent of women's problems across the planet...

It's also not a stretch to see how those statements could make her feel that way. Heartablaze, for instance, evidently agreed with my analysis. Harassment is harassment, regardless of the motives. If a male college student had sex with a female college student who was passed out drunk but he honestly believed that it was okay or genuinely thought she had given consent, his innocent intentions do not change the fact that he committed rape. No matter what his reasons were, the end result is that he violated her, which is immoral. That might be an extreme example, but it illustrates my point.

I'm sorry your majesty, but you're highlight two different things and pretending they are the same, when they clearly are not. Rape is a wee bit different than some random stranger saying something to you on a street corner. Do you seriously put that kind of thought into what everybody says to you? Wow, what a sad and boring life you must live if that ends up being the extent of your problems. You really think I haven't ran into these things and simply forgot about them and/or didn't put any further thought into it because I have more important things to worry about? As I pointed out above (and you'll most likely ignore it) lots of women live in a whole lost worse conditions than I live in. I think I'll count myself lucky that 'street harassment' is the worst stuff I have to deal with. I think I'll take the first world problems over some of the third world problems (such as mass rapes of women, genital mutation, sex slavery, etc). Now when you have something I should actually concern myself... try again, ok?

Likewise, when I claim that racism is present in certain situations, I'm not saying that the people involved behind it are evil. I don't presume to know their minds or hearts. But the end result is that people of different races are being treated or viewed unequally, and it is wrong to treat or view people of different races unequally, regardless of the intention. Whether an employer refused to hire a qualified black man named Tayshaun Washington because he simply felt unfamiliar with the name or because he consciously hates black people doesn't matter. If his motive was the former, it might be easier for Tayshaun to personally forgive him, but the fact remains that he's committed a wrong by discriminating along racial lines.

I'm sorry your majesty, but you keep highlighting all these first world problems and seem to be totally unaware of how truly lucky you and I remain. I didn't have to worry about being held down while some pretty horrible things were done to me. How about you? Do you have any idea what some of this stuff I mentioned is? Go look it up, if you really want to see some horrible practices done across the planet. I will not give links to it because some of that stuff is far too graphic for PG rated tWeb, but check for yourself. If the worst I have to deal with is 'street harassment' I think I'll consider my life quite good.

No, because as I've explained, I'm not judging these people's intentions. To the contrary, I'm completely ignoring their intentions. What I'm judging is their ACTIONS, which in this case have been shown to cause discomfort, which is problematic and therefore must be addressed.

And name two bad things that happened, as the result of their actions. Beyond you pretending first world problems are a huge deal and that you should obsess over what some random person said to you on a street corner, earlier in your day. You really think I haven't had these things happen to me? I have, but here is the thing, your majesty, those are first world problems and not really all that much of something I concern myself with considering my life has been pretty comfortable (for the most part). Actual problems, look them up sometime if you really want some perspective.

Earlier it seemed that you were arguing that those interactions weren't cat-calling, but now it seems that you're arguing that cat-calling isn't always wrong. I suppose you could try to make a case that it's not automatically wrong, but guys shouldn't try to accomplish it by saying things like "Damn!" or "Sexy" to complete strangers. Also, no one is trying to prescribe to you what to feel. The issue is that the sort of thing you personally were okay with makes many OTHER women feel uncomfortable, so men must therefore be careful about word choice and actions. You didn't mind hearing "Hey beautiful, how you doing" from a complete stranger? Good for you. But in regard to the women who do mind, the man has done something wrong, even if he didn't intend anything malicious. Yes, this does mean that the woman's subjective interpretation is a factor. However, Sparko was complaining that women could arbitrarily decide that literally anything is harassment, which is a ridiculous claim to make, because many of the interactions in the video are clearly more questionable than that.

Nope, not what I said, at all, but do keep trying. Now when you're done highlighting first world problems and pretending they are a big deal. I suggest you take a look at genital mutilation and see what you can do there if you truly want to help women in need. Unless of course, you just want to keep pretending these first world problems are big deals. In that case, keep going.