Black Men Speak Out!

[Cow Poke]

Now, lets see yours!

That's OK, Jimmy, you've done enough for all of us!

[Cow Poke]

What ever happened to the dream of a color blind society. Racism is disgusting.

It seems like people have forgotten the part of "I have a dream" which says:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

[MaxVel]

But what if they are?

No doubt there are people who face this kind of thing, but I just wonder if them looking at things how I've described is the best way to solve the problem. Perhaps by buying in to that way of evaluating people and social relationships they're actually validating that paradigm.

Could you please provide some examples to illustrate what you mean by this?

I (a 'white' non-American) was told that I was wrong by an African American simply because I was white, not black. Actually as our discussion progressed I realised I had a better grasp of the relevant facts than her - but my opinions on the matter were invalid, because I wasn't from her racial group.

I think it's pretty common knowledge that there are African Americans who deliberately target people for crimes on the basis of their (white) skin colour. I think at least part of the motivation is 'evening the score' in some imagined racial conflict - 'getting back at the racial group that has oppressed my racial group.'

I'm not sure what you mean by this either.

I thought that was pretty clear, I don't know if I can put it any clearer.

But when people say "I'm proud to be black," they usually mean something along the lines of "I'm not ashamed to be black." I don't see how acknowledging a part of their identity and refusing to be ashamed of that part fits that paradigm that you mentioned.

It's still seeing yourself (even if only in part) as a person of a particular race, and seeing that race as giving you some measure of value or status, or worth. Why not just not even care what race you - or someone else - is?

I have, and have had, lots of close relationships in different areas of my life with people from all sorts of racial backgrounds - South East Asian, Cameroonian, Taiwan Chinese, Malay Indian, Malay Chinese, Phillpino, Maori, Iranian, Russian, Nigerian, French Chinese, Algerian Arab, German... My only American friends outside of TWeb pals are a mixed race couple - she is white, he is black...

I don't really care what race anyone is, I care what kind of person they are.

What makes you think people are thinking that?

I think it's hard not to fall into that kind of thinking in that situation, it's easy to start to believe that you deserve to be treated better than others. That the world is tilted unfairly against you, and therefore none of your difficulties are really down to your choices, and so on.

It could theoretically happen, but I don't see any evidence that people in historically marginalized communities are actively trying to displace and marginalize the other communities.

Wow.

You really don't see any of that happening at all?

The gay rights lobby v Christians; extreme feminism v heterosexual males; racially targeted violence and crimes in America; Gamergate.... ? You have never heard of any of these things? Really?

[fm93]

and if I grew up in Japan, I would be the odd man out and treated differently there because of my race. Or in India, or in Africa, etc. White people don't have the market cornered on what you call "racism". In fact from what I hear Japanese are very snobbish about their race and consider other races as not as civilized as them.

What point are you trying to make? I never denied any of this. I'm well-aware that non-white people can be racist and enforce inequality in different countries. I never said that only white people can be racist. But within this country of America, which is what my discussion is focused on, inequality skews in favor of white people. How do racists in Japan or India have any relevance to what's going on in America?

[Cow Poke]

Fee Fie Foe Fum... I smell the blood of a JimmyLum

[JimL]

It seems like people have forgotten the part of "I have a dream" which says:

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

Gee, maybe if you'd stop supporting those who try to put up barriers to black people voting you guys could be taken more seriously.

[Cow Poke]

Fee Fie Foe Fum... I smell the blood of a JimmyLum

Right on cue!

Gee, maybe if you'd stop supporting those who try to put up barriers to black people voting you guys could be taken more seriously.

Maybe you'd quit trolling from your Mommy's basement and get your lazy keester out there and do stuff like I do --- actually WORK with minorities to help them get jobs and advance their careers. And, GEE, all the folks who are working WITH me in this are REPUBLICANS! The Democrats simply want to sign them up for welfare, and keep them on the plantation.

Jimmy -- you are SO out of your element here.

[Cow Poke]

Gee, maybe if you'd stop supporting those who try to put up barriers to black people voting you guys could be taken more seriously.

Here's how incredibly stupid this is, Jimmy.....

Republicans believe that voting is sacred, and only LEGAL votes should count. Why is it you automatically assume that those potentially ILLEGAL votes would necessarily be BLACKS?

Why are you so cotton-pickin* prejudiced!!!!





*get it? You guys want to keep blacks "on the plantation"?

[fm93]

No doubt there are people who face this kind of thing, but I just wonder if them looking at things how I've described is the best way to solve the problem. Perhaps by buying in to that way of evaluating people and social relationships they're actually validating that paradigm.

Well, if some people truly are disadvantaged and other people by logical extension truly are advantaged, then it's only fair to acknowledge it. But that's hardly feeding into a negative paradigm by merely acknowledging the fact.

I (a 'white' non-American) was told that I was wrong by an African American simply because I was white, not black. Actually as our discussion progressed I realised I had a better grasp of the relevant facts than her - but my opinions on the matter were invalid, because I wasn't from her racial group.

I think it's pretty common knowledge that there are African Americans who deliberately target people for crimes on the basis of their (white) skin colour. I think at least part of the motivation is 'evening the score' in some imagined racial conflict - 'getting back at the racial group that has oppressed my racial group.'

Okay then.

It's still seeing yourself (even if only in part) as a person of a particular race, and seeing that race as giving you some measure of value or status, or worth. Why not just not even care what race you - or someone else - is?

I disagree. It seems to me that it's more about seeing yourself as having value and status and worth because you're human and the human race includes blackness. It's not "I have worth because I'm black," but rather "My blackness does not strip me of my worth as a human being. I won't be ashamed of it."

And you're right, race shouldn't be something that matters...but society has yet to reach the point where it doesn't have to matter. So there still remains a need to take race into account, but that doesn't necessarily entail "judging" or "evaluating" people as people based on race.

I think it's hard not to fall into that kind of thinking in that situation, it's easy to start to believe that you deserve to be treated better than others. That the world is tilted unfairly against you, and therefore none of your difficulties are really down to your choices, and so on.

If one is truly disadvantaged to the point of not even having access to the basic necessities that other groups have been able to take for granted, then some sort of special treatment may be needed to get them closer to an equal level. The execution of this may be an issue, but that's hardly better treatment than others, any more than giving crutches to someone with a broken leg is providing better treatment over healthy-legged people.

You really don't see any of that happening at all?

The gay rights lobby v Christians; extreme feminism v heterosexual males; racially targeted violence and crimes in America; Gamergate.... ? You have never heard of any of these things? Really?

Some people in the gay rights movement have been hypocritical/unnecessarily mean towards a few Christians, but they're not trying to marginalize and oppress the community as a whole. I'm not sure what you mean by "extreme feminism vs heterosexual males." You didn't mention "racially targeted violence and crimes" in your previous post. I admit that I haven't followed the Gamergate issue very closely and therefore can't comment on it yet.

[JimL]

Here's how incredibly stupid this is, Jimmy.....

Republicans believe that voting is sacred, and only LEGAL votes should count. Why is it you automatically assume that those potentially ILLEGAL votes would necessarily be BLACKS?

Why are you so cotton-pickin* prejudiced!!!!





*get it? You guys want to keep blacks "on the plantation"?

If you think that voting is sacred then you wouldn't be voting for those who are attempting to suppress the vote of those who would vote against them. Even Republican Rand Paul has admitted that voting fraud, the reason given for the enactment of these suppression laws is bs, ergo an attempt to suppress the democratic vote, i.e. the vote of those minorities that you are working so hard to help.

[lilpixieofterror]

Please. For once, just earnestly try to understand where I and others are coming from.

My my your majesty, you've really worked yourself up into a frothy rant, didn't you? Do you feel better now? See, your majesty, I do understand where you are coming from and that is why I find your race baiting ways to be counter productive. As I'll show below.

Growing up, we spent about 9-10 hours of the 24-hour day asleep. During our 14-15 hours of consciousness, we spent about seven of those with our family and we got a good long look at ourselves in the mirror every morning, thereby becoming intimately familiar with what we and our relatives looked like, and then took a bus to school, where for eight hours each day--more time than we spent being awake with our families--we sat in a classroom or ran around in a playground in which the vast majority of people around us looked nothing like us. At the end of the school day, when parents picked everyone up at daycare or at the bus stop, we realized that the people with lighter skin tones never had to go through his familiar-to-unfamiliar transition each day; instead, they simply went from being completely surrounded with people who looked like them to being mostly surrounded with people who looked like them. We had to practice writing our first and last names over and over for handwriting exercises, and when the teacher hung up everyone's work, we realized that our last names looked starkly different from everyone else's, and so did the others, because our last names (and for some of us, our first names) tended to elicit snickers and smirks when uttered by us or by the teacher. Perhaps more starkly, it eventually caught our attention that the Smiths and Browns and Jones and Quinns and Martins in the class never elicited such snickers and smirks--and we began to sense that there was a concept called "normal" that pervaded their names while always remaining out of our reach. When we opened our bags and Tupperwares at lunch time, we also began to notice that the sight of the food that our parents had packed for us, which we'd always thought was mundane yet delicious in the comfort of our homes, that stuff that we'd always been eating, was curiously stripped of this sense once we came to school, and instead also elicited snickers and smirks--yet the lunches of the others were, again, protected by that mysterious concept called "normal."

While I do enjoy you reliving your past. How many years ago was that? 15? 20? You're still wrapped up in things that happened that long ago. How sad, I stopped thinking about the people that wronged me from high school though elementary school over 10 years ago now. I find it rather sad that you're going to let events that happened decades ago, control your life and lead you as strongly as they appear to do, but do you seriously think you were the only person on earth that had to deal with that stuff? Please, white people deal with that stuff too. I didn't have all the 'cool stuff' that the 'in crowd' had and I dealt with my fair share of snickers too. I was also quite a bit smarter than most of my peers too and did quite well in school. I had to deal with those issues too. Funny thing is, I haven't really thought about that in many years now. How many years ago was that now?

As we grew up and began to mentally and athletically immerse ourselves in academic subjects and sports, we started to notice that mysterious, elusive "normal" concept rear its odd head in those areas as well. We noticed that those of us who identified as Asian tended to be known for doing well in school, and that those of us who identified as "black" were generally not known for it; consequently, when an Asian person did poorly or a black person ranked towards the top of the class, we noticed that those occurrences tended to elicit murmurs of surprise, as if it was a glitch contrary to the programmed instructions of some machine. The "normal" eluded us when that happened. Yet as time went on, we also noticed something else--when people with lighter skin did poorly in school, nary a single eyebrow was raised in surprise, and the same thing occurred when a person with light skin excelled in school. And so we came to discover that this "normal" concept covered light-skinned people in such a way that they were viewed as non-monolithic, that the entire range of human experience and achievement applied to them, that it was understood that they were all simply individuals who could either fail or excel--not like us, who tended to be seen as representatives of our race. The "normal" didn't cover us.

Please, you think you're the only person that has dealt with that? What is the society perception of blonde women, your majesty? I've always done quite well in academic topics and have no real problems when it comes to school. I'm quite a natural at it and usually end up getting some of the highest grades in the class and do it with little to no study time either. Even in college, I didn't have to put much effort into it either. I just show up, listen to what the instructor says, do the busy work that is required, read the material, and just show up for the test. I don't say this to brag, but to make a point you keep missing. Race isn't the only way people judge you buy. Hair color, weight, looks, etc all work into the picture and to make my point for me, let me give you some quotes on the dumb blonde stereotype:

A 2006 study analyzed the hair color of 500 UK CEOs and found that blondes were underrepresented compared to the rest of the population. In a 1996 study, subjects read resumes that included head-shots of the supposed applicants. Although all the resumes were identical, the blonde applicants were rated as less competent.
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog...re%20dumb.html

Bottom line, get over yourself already. You're not the only person that has dealt with a bad stereotype and had people attempting to make up judgments about you based upon an irrelevant criteria. In my case, it's been the fact that there is a social view that blonde women are not very bright. I'm a natural blonde women that happens to be rather intelligent and quite good at task the stereotype claims blondes are suppose to be incapable of doing. Is this the point where I cry and rant, for awhile, about how mennies have wronged me 10+ years ago and that I'm still letting them control me, long after they totally forgot about the event(s) in question?

This applied to specific academic subjects as well. We learned in social studies that anyone who was born and raised in America is considered an American citizen, and we realized that by definition, we were all Americans. But then, when teachers taught us about classifications of nationality, we were told to hyphenate that word. Instead of merely listing ourselves as "American," people who looked like me had to write "Asian-American," and people with dark skin tones had to write "African-American." Meanwhile, the people with light skin tones simply got to write down "American." And so we came to realize that we weren't fully considered to be part of this country, that instead we had to clarify that our ancestors ultimately came from somewhere else--yet the white people, whose ancestors ALSO came from elsewhere, were spared from that caveat. They could simply consider themselves American due to being born and raised here, while we couldn't.

I would really like to hear where you got this one from because I've never seen that in any form I've filled out and I'm a military member as well as a college grad. I've filled out a lot of paper work over the years and have yet to see any paper, anywhere that says or implies that. I got to call BS on this one and ask you to prove your assertion is true. I also do find it as rather amusing that the very thing that many people identify as being, apparently now is being used as some sort of 'secret squirrel' racist code to try to keep the black/Asian/whatever on earth you identify yourself as being (except the evil white men, who want to enslave minorities and put women back in the kitchen, or so some people claim) on the farm/plantation/whatever stereotype applies to your group of people. Of course, this sounds like more first world problems to me. I'm sure the people, in Iraq, that were gunned down by the ISIS earlier this week would sure love to trade you problems.

And finally, there occasionally came times when we were given opportunities to temporarily escape everyday life. During spring breaks or summer vacations, our parents took us to places like New York City, where no matter what we looked like, we wandered around the city and couldn't help but see plenty of people who looked like us. Literally every street corner featured Asian people performing acrobatic tricks on the sidewalk or heading to some quaint authentic Chinese restaurant for dinner, and black people wearing oversized baseball caps and T-shirts chatting loudly on their cellphones or decked in crisp business attire and strolling into a sleek and majestic skyscraper for work, and Hispanic mothers chiding their children to hurry as they chased down a taxi or turned a corner. This diversity was part of that which gave the city its liveliness and identity. It was a new, more interesting presentation of "normal." Then we returned home for the new school year, and after the school day ended, we turned on the TV to watch shows and escape the end of a long day. One of those shows was "Friends," which we learned was set in New York City--yet that diversity we remembered experiencing, that which had given the place its life and identity, was gone. And it isn't difficult to think "The people who were cut out...are those who look like me." That new normal had been overshadowed by the old normal.

Yep, poor his majesty, King Square Peg I. More first world problems, eh? I'm sure those Christians being killed for their faith over in Iraq and Syria would love to trade you places. I'm sure they would take your claims of racism existing being every tree in trade for not being gunned down by an Islamic terrorist, bent on murdering people who do not follow their brand of Islam. Life is so hard for you, isn't it? How many times did you have to put down your cell phone, to cry about how the white man is trying to keep you down and how horrible your life is, over here in the US?

So you see, while I wouldn't say that we "obsess" over race, it is nevertheless an important aspect of our lives, something that we often can't help but think about in some manner--because it's a fundamental part of who we are.

And being in the military is a fundamental part of my life and I've run into problems because of it. Yet again though... why is it that I don't sit here and whine about how poor and oppressed I am by those mean white men? Ever been a women in the military, your majesty? Ever worked in a male dominated career field? Please, you act as though race is the only thing people are judged upon and you seem to think you're first world problems are some serious things. If the worst I have to deal with is somebody thinking that women can't be good mechanics. Life is pretty good. At least I don't have to wear a berka, can drive a car, can hold a job, and don't have to worry about being stoned to death if I were to get rapped. Yep, poor me...

It doesn't define us as individuals, but to fully understand and explain our identity in this society, we can never truly ignore it as long as inequality and injustice exists...and we are highly conditioned to detect such things, because they, along with race in general, are a part of our life experience. So it is dismissive, close-minded and deeply insulting when you ignore our words and respond with terms like "race-baiter" or "playing the race card," as if that which has shaped our very lives and identities in this country is merely some magic trick or rhetorical ploy--as if it's something trivial and non-serious. We could be wrong or over-emphasizing an issue, but we never make claims unless we genuinely think that the problem is real and significant.

As I pointed out to you above, you're not the only poor sap in the world. Funny thing is... I don't whine about:

1. Blonde stereotypes about blonde women being a bunch of stupid floozies; barely capable of saying our ABC's. I suppose I could obsesses over it, throw a fit over it, and whine about it to the degree you are. Or I could roll my eyes at them, keep my nose buried in my latest book, and don't care what they think.
2. I could whine about some of the treatment I've received about the whole 'women can't be good mechanics' stuff I've dealt with before. Or I could do what I keep doing and proving them wrong with every word they say while being better at the job than they are.

Hey though, don't worry about it though. You obviously are the only person, on the face of the earth, that has deal with stupid/ignorant people around you and obviously being a white girl makes your life so easy, wonderful, and pain free. Now when you get yourself out of your delusional fantasy world and actually see reality. We'll try this again, ok? Many of us have dealt with this sort of crap, but I choose to not let it define me and not obsessive over it. While I've dealt with chauvinist male pigs, uppity women with a stuck shoved in their you know what, etc I don't seem to have decided to whine about it, throw a fit over it, sound like those problems at the end of my world, etc as you seem to have. Why are you so upset and obsessed over people who have wronged you in life? I don't even remember the names of most of the people who have wronged me in life because I rarely think about them anymore. Why do you think about yours, so much?

[Cow Poke]

If you think that voting is sacred

I do. That's why it needs to be honored.

then you wouldn't be voting for those who are attempting to suppress the vote of those who would vote against them.

Jimmy,

You have swallowed the liberal talking points. If we want HONEST votes, they why must you assume that it's the minorities who are DIShonest? That's so prejudicial of you, and quite sad.

Even Republican Rand Paul has admitted that voting fraud, the reason given for the enactment of these suppression laws is bs, ergo an attempt to suppress the democratic vote, i.e. the vote of those minorities that you are working so hard to help.

Well, first, I don't report to Rand Paul, and secondly, I don't trust you to accurately report what he said.

But, tell me Jimmy - besides regurgitating the liberal talking points from the looney left's echo chamber () what are you actually DOING to help minorities? I mean, I know you want to manipulate them into keeping your liberal plantation owners in power, but what have you, personally, actually done for them?

Please commence kabuki dancing.

[Sparko]

What point are you trying to make? I never denied any of this. I'm well-aware that non-white people can be racist and enforce inequality in different countries. I never said that only white people can be racist. But within this country of America, which is what my discussion is focused on, inequality skews in favor of white people. How do racists in Japan or India have any relevance to what's going on in America?

My point is, because the USA was mostly settled from immigrants from Europe there are more white people here, and it is the dominant race here. So yeah, you are going to see more white people on TV, or on the street, or in schools and in society in general. And other racial groups might feel a bit out of place among whites, but that is not necessarily because the whites are being racist. A lot of that is how the minorities feel about living in a society where they are fewer in number. It is not a conspiracy or racism. So if you grew up and felt like you were being treated differently it might be mostly because of the way YOU perceive the world and not how the general public viewed you. They might have noticed you were different from them, just like you noticed you were different from them, but that doesn't equate to them being racist to you any more than you were being racist to them. The examples I gave were how a white person would be in the exact position if they grew up in a country where they were the minority.

Or in a place. When I lived in El Paso, the school I went to was mostly hispanic and black and the whites were the minority. In Atlanta or Detroit, blacks are the majority. And as time goes on, I think that there will become even more mixing of races in the USA. Whites will become just another race among many here instead of the dominant race.

So maybe, just maybe, instead of racism on the part of the white people, a lot of the problem is paranoia on the part of the minority.

[Zymologist]

If one is truly disadvantaged to the point of not even having access to the basic necessities that other groups have been able to take for granted, then some sort of special treatment may be needed to get them closer to an equal level. The execution of this may be an issue, but that's hardly better treatment than others, any more than giving crutches to someone with a broken leg is providing better treatment over healthy-legged people.

Are you saying that this happens in modern-day America? If so, could you give an example? This seems like an overly strong claim to me.

[JimL]

I do. That's why it needs to be honored.

Then stop dishonering it because you know that suppression is the only way your ideology can win.

Jimmy,

You have swallowed the liberal talking points. If we want HONEST votes, they why must you assume that it's the minorities who are DIShonest? That's so prejudicial of you, and quite sad.

I disagree with you that there is a voter fraud problem to begin with so it is you, and republicans in general, not me who assumes dishonesty. Republicans have never been able to show the wide spread voter fruad that they imagine there to be, and that they claim there to be in order that they enact these laws which disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of citizens. Now you, I am sure are well aware of the true purpose of these laws, i.e. to undermine democracy and steal elections, even if you are incapable of admitting to it. Its just that you want to win CP, and so you have to fool yourself into believing what the propagandists tell you about voter fraud.

Well, first, I don't report to Rand Paul, and secondly, I don't trust you to accurately report what he said.

Nobody said you did, but if you were really interested one way or the other you could easily find what Rand Paul said about it for yourself.

But, tell me Jimmy - besides regurgitating the liberal talking points from the looney left's echo chamber () what are you actually DOING to help minorities? I mean, I know you want to manipulate them into keeping your liberal plantation owners in power, but what have you, personally, actually done for them?

Please commence kabuki dancing.

I'll tell you what I am not doing CP, I am not making myself feel good about counciling the poor and minorities to better themselves while stabbing them in the back at the ballot box. I don't want to council people on how they can do better in an unjust system, I want a fair and just system to begin with CP, not a corrupt one run by the wealthy puppets of wealthy Corporations and Banks, thats what I am working for.