Perform Same-Sex Marriage Or Go To Jail !!!!!!

[robrecht]

And what is your point? The state is attempting to force them to marry homosexual couples.That is not morally acceptable to them. And that it violates the Knapp's religious beliefs and I quote “that God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman.” No matter how you cut it, it is the state trying to compel this couple to violate their beliefs.

It seems to me the state merely wants them to clarify if they are offering religious services, which would be their protected right, or operating as a secular business with civil services for the public. Previously they wanted to offer secular services to people of other faiths or no faith. Such secular businesses do not have a right to discriminate against others on account of their customers' legally protected religious beliefs. I know you don't accept that, and would also allow businesses to discriminate on the basis of race as well, but a large component of society no longer agrees with you. No one is forcing the Knapps to offer religious services that
are against their religious beliefs.

[robrecht]

Yes, but they see those other marriages as legitimate, according to the biblical model of one man and one woman.

And as a church or religious organization they can exercise that religious belief of theirs without interference from the state. The state does not prohibit a Catholic priest from marrying Jewish or gay people, but the bishop might. Do you know what denomination the Knapps are?

[seer]

It seems to me the state merely wants them to clarify if they are offering religious services, which would be their protected right, or operating as a secular business with civil services for the public. Previously they wanted to offer secular services to people of other faiths or no faith. Such secular businesses do not have a right to discriminate against others on account of their customers' legally protected religious beliefs. I know you don't accept that, and would also allow businesses to discriminate on the basis of race as well, but a large component of society no longer agrees with you. No one is forcing the Knapps to offer religious services that are against their religious beliefs.

That is correct - I don't agree. No man should have to compromise his religious beliefs just because he is in business or offering a public service. And YES - they were trying to FORCE the Knapps to officiate homosexual marriages.

[seer]

And as a church or religious organization they can exercise that religious belief of theirs without interference from the state. The state does not prohibit a Catholic priest from marrying Jewish or gay people, but the bishop might. Do you know what denomination the Knapps are?

You don't get it robrecht - I don't care, no man should have to compromise his religious beliefs in the market place. This was never the case for most of our history - this is just one more example as to why anti-discrimination laws are so pernicious. And antithetical to human freedom.

[robrecht]

That is correct - I don't agree. No man should have to compromise his religious beliefs just because he is in business or offering a public service. And YES - they were trying to FORCE the Knapps to officiate homosexual marriages.

They are not trying to force them to officiate at gay marriages; they are merely saying that they they cannot be considered a "public accomodations" business if they discriminate against those who have different religious beliefs.

[robrecht]

You don't get it robrecht - I don't care, no man should have to compromise his religious beliefs in the market place. This was never the case for most of our history - this is just one more example as to why anti-discrimination laws are so pernicious. And antithetical to human freedom.

Of course I get it. You don't want these business owners to be forced to compromise on their religious beliefs by discriminating against customers with differing religious beliefs. Our government will allow religions and churches to discriminate on the basis of religious beliefs but not business that are open to the public. In the public marketplace, one cannot discriminate against others on the basis of their religion.

[seer]

They are not trying to force them to officiate at gay marriages; they are merely saying that they they cannot be considered a "public accomodations" business if they discriminate against those who have different religious beliefs.

What are you talking about? Why are the Knapps being threatened with jail or fines?

[robrecht]

Do you know what denomination the Knapps are?

According to one of seer's links, this is the church the Knapps belong to:

http://www.foursquare.org/about/history

I wonder if they would want them to continue officiating at non-Christian religious services and civil services? Or will the Knapps incorporate as some other kind of religious organization?

[seer]

In the public marketplace, one cannot discriminate against others on the basis of their religion.

That that is deeply immoral and completely antithetical to human freedom, and the Founding principles of this nation. To force an elderly Christian couple to marry homosexuals just because they are in the marketplace is profoundly wicked. And the fact robrecht that you do not see this is troubling.

[robrecht]

What are you talking about? Why are the Knapps being threatened with jail or fines?

Here's the local newspaper account linked to in Tassman's link.

"City officials in Coeur d'Alene say they have not received any formal complaints that the Hitching Post wedding chapel has violated the city's anti-discrimination ordinance by refusing to solemnize same-sex marriages."

"We have never threatened to jail them, or take legal action of any kind," said city spokesman Keith Erickson.

In response to the lawsuit, the city released a copy of a letter City Attorney Mike Gridley sent Monday to David A. Cortman, senior legal counsel with Alliance Defending Freedom ...

In the letter, Gridley confirmed the details of a telephone conversation he says he had Monday with Cortman.

Gridley wrote that his office has responded in the past to questions from the Knapps about their business - registered as a for-profit limited liability company with the Idaho Secretary of State's office. He admitted that the Knapps were told by his office that if a complaint was filed against them for refusing to provide service to gay individuals seeking to marry, they would likely be in violation of the city's ordinance, based on their corporate status. ...

Gridley also noted that on Oct. 6, the Knapps filed an LLC operating agreement with the state indicating that the Hitching Post is a "religious organization." He told the Knapps' attorney in the letter that if the Knapps are "truly operating a not-for-profit religious corporation" they would be specifically exempted from the city ordinance.

"Their lawsuit was something of a surprise because we have had cordial conversations with them in the past and they have never disclosed that they have recently become a religious corporation," Gridley wrote.

Gridley wrote that the city will not prosecute legitimate nonprofit religious corporations, associations, educational institutions, or societies or other exempt organizations or anyone else as a result of their lawful exercise of their First Amendment rights of freedom of speech and religion.

http://m.cdapress.com/news/local_new....html?mode=jqm

[seer]

Here's the local newspaper account linked to in Tassman's link.

"City officials in Coeur d'Alene say they have not received any formal complaints that the Hitching Post wedding chapel has violated the city's anti-discrimination ordinance by refusing to solemnize same-sex marriages."

"We have never threatened to jail them, or take legal action of any kind," said city spokesman Keith Erickson.

In response to the lawsuit, the city released a copy of a letter City Attorney Mike Gridley sent Monday to David A. Cortman, senior legal counsel with Alliance Defending Freedom ...

In the letter, Gridley confirmed the details of a telephone conversation he says he had Monday with Cortman.

Gridley wrote that his office has responded in the past to questions from the Knapps about their business - registered as a for-profit limited liability company with the Idaho Secretary of State's office. He admitted that the Knapps were told by his office that if a complaint was filed against them for refusing to provide service to gay individuals seeking to marry, they would likely be in violation of the city's ordinance, based on their corporate status. ...

Gridley also noted that on Oct. 6, the Knapps filed an LLC operating agreement with the state indicating that the Hitching Post is a "religious organization." He told the Knapps' attorney in the letter that if the Knapps are "truly operating a not-for-profit religious corporation" they would be specifically exempted from the city ordinance.

"Their lawsuit was something of a surprise because we have had cordial conversations with them in the past and they have never disclosed that they have recently become a religious corporation," Gridley wrote.

Gridley wrote that the city will not prosecute legitimate nonprofit religious corporations, associations, educational institutions, or societies or other exempt organizations or anyone else as a result of their lawful exercise of their First Amendment rights of freedom of speech and religion.

http://m.cdapress.com/news/local_new....html?mode=jqm

The key question:

Gridley wrote that his office has responded in the past to questions from the Knapps about their business - registered as a for-profit limited liability company with the Idaho Secretary of State's office. He admitted that the Knapps were told by his office that if a complaint was filed against them for refusing to provide service to gay individuals seeking to marry, they would likely be in violation of the city's ordinance, based on their corporate status.

Violation of the anti-discrimination law is a misdemeanor with a fine as steep as $1,000, and as long as six months in jail.

[Jedidiah]

Dropping the case because the Knapps are registering as a religious corporation? Sounds like the Knapps are availing themselves of religious freedoms that were already available to them but which they had previously not claimed. Any idea why? Is there a reason why they had not previously considered themselves a religious corporation?

Why should someone have to go through a bunch of paper work to save their First Amendment rights?

[Jedidiah]

http://www.twocare.org/idaho-pastors...ligious-right/

And I should pay any attention to a site by someone called Center Against Religious Extremism? Why not honest news sites?

[robrecht]

Why should someone have to go through a bunch of paper work to save their First Amendment rights?

To operate legally within a state as a church or business? Specifically, if they want their religious or civil marriage ceremonies to be recognized by the state, I would presume there must be a certain amount of paperwork involved.

[seer]

To operate legally within a state as a church or business? Specifically, if they want their religious or civil marriage ceremonies to be recognized by the state, I would presume there must be a certain amount of paperwork involved.

And I suspect that you would support the state here too: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...over-Abortions