Re: Michael Brown

[Sparko]

When the use of lethal force is justified, the officer is under no obligation whatsoever to fire ONE shot, and wait to see where it hit or how fatal it is.... then determine if another shot is required.....

I think square_peg watches too many action flicks where the hero just non-nonchalantly wings the bad guy (sometimes with a cool ricochet shot) enough to make him give up or drop his gun. I doubt SP has ever shot a real gun himself. Especially under the stress of someone attacking him.

[Sparko]

Ummm... He was throwing a molotov cocktail back at the police? Since when do the police use such firebombs?

Not to mention, how did he catch it in mid-air to toss it back? If it hit the ground it would have shattered and nothing would be left to toss back.

[MaxVel]

Well, I tried to have a conversation about this whole thing with my American co-worker. (I'm not American, and we're working in SE Asia). It just wasn't possible to have a rational discussion with this person about this.


I wanted to talk about was not so much the specifics of this incident (since there are a bunch of conflicting reports, and when we talked neither of us knew of the autopsy results, nor the 'second witness' testimony about Brown running up on the officer) but more the surrounding issues of racial tension.

Anyway, this person was determined that (a) I couldn't possibly understand, nor have a valid opinion on this event (since I'm white); (b) Brown was an innocent victim of a police 'execution'; (c) the shooting was definitely racially motivated (IOW, if Brown had been white, he wouldn't have been shot).

I pointed out that he had stolen something from a convenience store just before the shooting, had been walking in the road, some witnesses said he had charged at the policeman, and that we just didn't know enough of the facts of the case to make a accurate judgment - all to no avail. Brown was another innocent black man murdered by racist police. Facts or lack of facts had no bearing on my colleague's view of the event.


Here's my question: From what I've said here, what else can you guess or infer about my colleague?

The answers to that are what I see as a real tragedy for American, which feed things like what's been happening in Ferguson.


Some other thoughts:

That Brown was unarmed when he was shot seems to me of more emotional impact than of having any real bearing on the justice (or otherwise) of his killing. IOW,a red herring. AFAIK the officer had no way of knowing whether or not Brown was armed, so presumably that didn't factor into his decision making process, except that he may have had to presume that Brown was armed. IF this was a 'justified' killing, it is so at least in part because Brown acted in a threatening enough manner that the officer had reasons to fear for his safety and/or that of others (if Brown got hold of his duty weapon, say). If the killing was unjustified, it will be so at least in part because Brown did not give the officer sufficient reason to fire in self defense.

Talk of not shooting at all, or of shooting to wound, or waiting until he was closer before shooting seems to me to be foolish at best, unless Brown did not charge at the officer. Handguns just aren't that accurate in stress situations; the time available for making a decision when someone is charging at you is very short (2 seconds maybe); the fact that he's charging at someone he knows is armed and ready to fire indicates a readiness to act extremely aggressively.


Bottom line:

There seems to be enough facts available for people to reasonably believe that Brown got himself killed, and the cop was justified in shooting at him.
(The witness who says Brown was running at the officer; the testimony that he had already had some kind of an altercation with the cop, and tried to grab his gun; the footage of him in the convenience store; the autopsy results). One possible scenario that fits these is that Brown got 'pulled over' by the cop (for walking in the road), there was an altercation and he tried to grab the cop's gun, Brown then moved away, the cop drew and presented, perhaps calling on Brown to stop, Brown ran back aggressively at the cop (from at least 30 feet away), the cop fired, and Brown went down. The cop was justified in shooting at someone who was aggressive, physically large and intimidating, had already tried to grab his gun, was now coming at him with probable intent to get the gun and/or commit serious violence on him.

I think that's one reasonable scenario as to what happened.


Now some of these facts are open to interpretation (the autopsy results) or doubt (the witness testimonies), or might be just rejected. That leaves room for people to (fairly reasonably) reject the above scenario and opt for one that makes the shooting unjustified. Which means that reasonable people could believe that.

On top of that, there are people, like my workmate, it seems, who have already made a decision about this case - it's another cop killing an innocent young black man - and will hold to that regardless of whatever the facts might be.

THAT is the larger tragedy here.

[Juvenal]

If it hit the ground it would have shattered and nothing would be left to toss back.

Just checking. That's satire, right?

[tabibito]

I do consider that the officer's account could possibly be true. Sparko, meanwhile, phrased his posts as if it was definitely true.


What's your point? Remember, I've repeatedly stated that I disapprove of rioting.


What do you not understand? I'm not "jumping to conclusions and pontificating as if I know exactly what happened," because I don't know exactly what happened between Brown and the officer. I've repeatedly said this. However, we ALREADY KNOW that an unarmed teenager was shot repeatedly and killed. I'm not jumping to conclusions about this aspect, because that conclusion is ALREADY PROVEN. And I can certainly talk as if I know exactly what happened in regard to this aspect, because we ALREADY KNOW THAT HE WAS SHOT REPEATEDLY AND KILLED. And what happened is senseless and tragic REGARDLESS of whose account is true. It is NEVER sensible for an unarmed teenager to be shot repeatedly, killed, and left to die in the street, regardless of whether he tried to assault an officer or not.

An attempted assault doesn't result in injuries for the intended victim - which according to reports, were inflicted on the police officer.
Also, reports have it that the police officer was beaten about the head before he fired. That kind of thing can leave a person with temporarily impaired judgement.

[tabibito]

On top of that, there are people, like my workmate, it seems, who have already made a decision about this case - it's another cop killing an innocent young black man - and will hold to that regardless of whatever the facts might be.

THAT is the larger tragedy here.

Would I be right in assuming that he is a teacher?

[Zymologist]

I witnessed a man charging a police car who was shot SEVEN TIMES center mass and he kept charging, then grabbed the front bumper of the police car, and lifted it off the ground. It was his forward momentum AND the fact that he was on PCP.

ASSUMING that the last two shots (you're aware of the term "group" in shooting?) were the head and eye shot, the other four were totally insignificant. There was some testimony, however, that the head shot was the SAME BULLET as the eye shot, re-entering the head. I wasn't clear on that, because the coroner and the attorney both presented opposing testimony, and neither clarified or challenged the other.



Information that supports whatever you want to believe.



Yes, so you said.



"scare quotes"?



Yuh.

How would this work?

[Cow Poke]

How would this work?

It almost sounded like the "magic bullet" in the Kennedy assassination. But the fact is that it's possible for a bullet to enter part of the body, be deflected by a bone -- especially the skull -- exit the body through, say, the cheek, and reenter the chest. Stranger things have happened.

But the celebrity coroner DID say that his autopsy report was only PARTIAL because he was waiting on x-rays showing the positions of the bullets PRIOR to removal, along with tox reports.

[Cow Poke]

I saw that video. Saw a report saying he was still carrying those cigarillos...

Swisher sweets - from the urban dictionary (which I don't cite very often ) "Cheap cigars that most people use to roll blunts with. Very easy to split and dump out the tobacco to replace with weed. Popular among rappers."

[Cow Poke]

Well, I tried to have a conversation about this whole thing with my American co-worker. (I'm not American, and we're working in SE Asia). It just wasn't possible to have a rational discussion with this person about this.


I wanted to talk about was not so much the specifics of this incident (since there are a bunch of conflicting reports, and when we talked neither of us knew of the autopsy results, nor the 'second witness' testimony about Brown running up on the officer) but more the surrounding issues of racial tension.

Anyway, this person was determined that (a) I couldn't possibly understand, nor have a valid opinion on this event (since I'm white); (b) Brown was an innocent victim of a police 'execution'; (c) the shooting was definitely racially motivated (IOW, if Brown had been white, he wouldn't have been shot).

I pointed out that he had stolen something from a convenience store just before the shooting, had been walking in the road, some witnesses said he had charged at the policeman, and that we just didn't know enough of the facts of the case to make a accurate judgment - all to no avail. Brown was another innocent black man murdered by racist police. Facts or lack of facts had no bearing on my colleague's view of the event.


Here's my question: From what I've said here, what else can you guess or infer about my colleague?

The answers to that are what I see as a real tragedy for American, which feed things like what's been happening in Ferguson.


Some other thoughts:

That Brown was unarmed when he was shot seems to me of more emotional impact than of having any real bearing on the justice (or otherwise) of his killing. IOW,a red herring. AFAIK the officer had no way of knowing whether or not Brown was armed, so presumably that didn't factor into his decision making process, except that he may have had to presume that Brown was armed. IF this was a 'justified' killing, it is so at least in part because Brown acted in a threatening enough manner that the officer had reasons to fear for his safety and/or that of others (if Brown got hold of his duty weapon, say). If the killing was unjustified, it will be so at least in part because Brown did not give the officer sufficient reason to fire in self defense.

Talk of not shooting at all, or of shooting to wound, or waiting until he was closer before shooting seems to me to be foolish at best, unless Brown did not charge at the officer. Handguns just aren't that accurate in stress situations; the time available for making a decision when someone is charging at you is very short (2 seconds maybe); the fact that he's charging at someone he knows is armed and ready to fire indicates a readiness to act extremely aggressively.


Bottom line:

There seems to be enough facts available for people to reasonably believe that Brown got himself killed, and the cop was justified in shooting at him.
(The witness who says Brown was running at the officer; the testimony that he had already had some kind of an altercation with the cop, and tried to grab his gun; the footage of him in the convenience store; the autopsy results). One possible scenario that fits these is that Brown got 'pulled over' by the cop (for walking in the road), there was an altercation and he tried to grab the cop's gun, Brown then moved away, the cop drew and presented, perhaps calling on Brown to stop, Brown ran back aggressively at the cop (from at least 30 feet away), the cop fired, and Brown went down. The cop was justified in shooting at someone who was aggressive, physically large and intimidating, had already tried to grab his gun, was now coming at him with probable intent to get the gun and/or commit serious violence on him.

I think that's one reasonable scenario as to what happened.


Now some of these facts are open to interpretation (the autopsy results) or doubt (the witness testimonies), or might be just rejected. That leaves room for people to (fairly reasonably) reject the above scenario and opt for one that makes the shooting unjustified. Which means that reasonable people could believe that.

On top of that, there are people, like my workmate, it seems, who have already made a decision about this case - it's another cop killing an innocent young black man - and will hold to that regardless of whatever the facts might be.

THAT is the larger tragedy here.

You are WAY to reasonable to be of any use in this thread.

[MaxVel]

Would I be right in assuming that he is a teacher?

half right: She is a teacher. What racial group?

[Cow Poke]

half right: She is a teacher. What racial group?

Does she also swear that OJ Simpson was innocent, and Travyon Martin was murdered in cold blood?

[MaxVel]

You are WAY to reasonable to be of any use in this thread.

Gee, I'm sorry about that. I'm going to be less reasonable from here on in....

[Cow Poke]

Gee, I'm sorry about that. I'm going to be less reasonable from here on in....

No, please, it's much appreciated!

[rogue06]

Swisher sweets - from the urban dictionary (which I don't cite very often ) "Cheap cigars that most people use to roll blunts with. Very easy to split and dump out the tobacco to replace with weed. Popular among rappers."

Back in the day some of my friends in skewl smoked Swisher Sweets. Horrible, horrible, horrible cigars