Re: Michael Brown

[fm93]

You obviously have very little actual life experience in the cold hard world.

Are you telling me that it's standard practice to use lethal force when your life isn't in immediate danger? Or that it's standard practice to shoot unarmed people, and to shoot as many times as possible?

[Cow Poke]

Are you telling me that it's standard practice to use lethal force when your life isn't in immediate danger?

Most departments will convene a "shooting board" in an officer involved shooting. At that time, the officer must demonstrate that he had a reasonable belief that his life was in imminent danger. It's not about "standard practice".

Or that it's standard practice to shoot unarmed people, and to shoot as many times as possible?

Thank you for demonstrating to the readers what an ignorant you are being.

[Cow Poke]

When the use of lethal force is justified, the officer is under no obligation whatsoever to fire ONE shot, and wait to see where it hit or how fatal it is.... then determine if another shot is required.....

[rogue06]

We have actual facts already, and they tell us that the killing was senseless and the police mismanaged the situation. Namely, we know that an unarmed teenager with no criminal record was shot six times by a police officer and was consequently killed. That's senseless and unacceptable. We also know that the police arrested journalists and tried to interfere with recordings, and that they then fired tear gas canisters, smoke bombs and rubber bullets not only on the street, but also into people's backyards. That's a mismanagement of the situation. There are still plenty of things we don't know, but of the facts that we already have, we can certainly make these judgments. What facts are you waiting for?

It is far too early to make any judgment one way or another. And while it may have been "senseless" that does not automatically translate into being the officer's fault.

According to a friend the family of Darren Wilson (the policeman who shot Brown), the "unarmed teenager" bum rushed the officer causing the latter to open fire. This version appears to be corroborated by at least one witness whose conversation with another person was picked up on video taken shortly after the incident. This person is recording as saying that Brown fled the police car but then "doubled back" and was charging at Wilson when he opened fire at him.

Other witness give different accounts. Some apparently said he was running away when he was shot but this is contradicted by the autopsy which reveals that all the rounds struck him from the front. Others say he was standing with his hands raised in surrender when he was shot. All of this only means that as I said it is too early to make any judgments at this point.

And how the police reacted or over reacted in certain incidences after the shooting has no bearing on this.

[Cow Poke]

It is far too early to make any judgment one way or another. And while it may have been "senseless" that does not automatically translate into being the officer's fault.

According to a friend the family of Darren Wilson (the policeman who shot Brown), the "unarmed teenager" bum rushed the officer causing the latter to open fire. This version appears to be corroborated by at least one witness whose conversation with another person was picked up on video. This person is recording as saying that Brown fled the police car but then "doubled back" and was charging at Wilson when he opened fire at him.

EGGzackly!

Some witness testimony will state that the police officer was telling Brown to get out of the street, and started to get out of the patrol vehicle, and Brown (depending on the witness account) pushed him back into the patrol car, tried to get his gun, GOT his gun, a shot was fired INSIDE the patrol vehicle..... we don't know. That's why there will be a grand jury and, possibly, a trial, and if a trial, possibly TWO trials -- one criminal and one civil. In ADDITION, there will probably be a shooting board.

Why not wait for FACTS?

[rogue06]

It's senseless to respond by shooting an unarmed teenager six times, hitting him in areas that would kill him.

When you open fire you do it in a manner that will drop an attacker. The places you strike to drop an attacker are generally also the same spots that are often lethal. Shooting to wound or shooting someone in the leg is a Hollywood fantasy and anyone with any experience with firearms used in any sort of conflict should realize this.

[Cow Poke]

When you open fire you do it in a manner that will drop an attacker. The places you strike to drop an attacker are generally also the same spots that are often lethal. Shooting to wound or shooting someone in the leg is a Hollywood fantasy and anyone with any experience with firearms used in any sort of conflict should realize this.

Evidently, the REASON there were six shots was because the majority of those shots, according to the celebrity autopsy expert, were not fatal, and would NOT have stopped a 300 lb man charging the police officer (if, in fact, that's what happened). And, if the officer was shooting to kill, he must have been not so good a marksman, because NONE of the shots were "center mass".

(Note that, in the "heat of battle", even a really GOOD marksman can, if not very practiced under pressure, repeatedly miss "center mass")

[rogue06]

https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench/st...77829420302336

@AntonioFrench It's important for people to understand that the man is this photo was throwing it BACK at police who shot it at him.

Ummm... He was throwing a molotov cocktail back at the police? Since when do the police use such firebombs?

[Cow Poke]

Ummm... He was throwing a molotov cocktail back at the police? Since when do the police use such firebombs?

EGGzackly!

[Juvenal]

Brown wasn't pointing what appeared to be a deadly weapon at the officer.

A 300 pound dude could beat most folks to death, weapon or no weapon.

I watched one of my 300 pound biker buddies once put a guy into a state of catatonic fear threatening him with one medium ham-sized fist. The guy was sitting in his car. Mac was on his Sportster pulled up next to him, shaking that fist and shouting at the guy through the dude's rapidly closing car window. Something along the lines of how he was going to pull him right through that window and beat him to death.

When the guy reached for his phone, Mac delivered, "Don't call the cops, call an ambulance."

We rode away, and the guy parked it, not moving, in the middle of the street, downtown Chicago, in a pool of urine no doubt, or maybe something browner.

In Mac's defense, he was a pretty gentle guy most times. The dude had gone road rage on me after I'd shot a hole past him, and was barreling after me trying to run me down. As if he could catch me, or outmaneuver me if he did. It was no work at all to weave the traffic and pull in behind the guy. The fact I had a monster buddy riding behind might have escaped him, but not for long. I'm guessing he's been a bit more circumspect going after bikers ever since.

So please, peg, stop with the dude was unarmed bit, okay? Those of us who've been there, on either side, know better, and you'll never convince us we haven't seen what we've seen.

As ever, Jesse

[Cow Poke]

It should be a federal offense to cross state lines to be involved in a riot. Many of those arrested in the looting last night appear to be from New York, California, and other states.

[Juvenal]

EGGzackly!

That's not a molotov cocktail. They don't spark.

[Cow Poke]

Kirk was a fellow officer, though he was SO and I was PD. He was involved in shooting that resulted in the death of a black teenager. It was in a dark alley at night behind a grocery store shortly after a reported robbery at a nearby bowling ally. Kirk warned the kid, who turned toward him with something in his hand, and Kirk fired two shots, killing the kid. The object in his hand turned out to be a Sony walkman, but Kirk testified that he saw the street light reflect off of it, and it looked like a gun, pointed directly at him.

Kirk went through THREE WEEKS of shooting board to justify the actions that took less than 3 seconds. He told his story no less than 21 times during that shooting board under intense cross examination, including your typical ignorant "why couldn't you just shoot the gun out of his hand" type taunts. It was exhausting and grueling, but ultimately he was cleared, and it was ruled justifiable, or what we call a "righteous shooting".

Fast forward 11 months. Kirk had stopped a car where a 15 or 16 year old white kid had been speeding down a dirt road. The kid said he only lived 2 doors down from where they were stopped, and for reasons I absolutely do not understand, Kirk allowed the kid to drive the 400 or so feet to his driveway to get his license. Not knowing these details, I was on patrol in that part of the county, and routinely headed that direction to back him up.

As I got to the location, I saw Kirk's county unit in the driveway, and Kirk was getting out of the vehicle. At the same time, the front door of this home flies open, and the kid steps out onto the porch with a deer rifle which he aims directly at Kirk. I'm still seatbelted in my patrol vehicle, pulling into the driveway, and notifying dispatch I'm arriving on scene.

I see Kirk reach for his 9 mil, draw it halfway out of the holster, and FREEZE. ONE SHOT straight through his heart, and Kirk is dead. I'm absolutely blown away, because I didn't have a CLUE yet how all this unfolded, and as I jump out of my unit ready to return fire, the kid throws the deer rifle into the front yard and puts his hands in the air. I WANTED to shoot, believe me, but I got busy issuing the "officer down" call, my gun still trained on the kid, and rushing to check Kirk for any vital signs. There were none.

What happened? I have no doubt that, as Kirk reached for his weapon, he suddenly had flashbacks of the 21 days of grueling examination in the shooting board, and froze.

21 days to challenge a decision he had made in less than 3 seconds.

I can just see Square_Peg on that shooting board shouting idiot questions and grilling Kirk for his "murdering an unarmed teen".

[Cow Poke]

That's not a molotov cocktail. They don't spark.

Flashbangs don't burn like that, it doesn't appear to be tear gas, it's not smoke..... but the MAIN point, as I said earlier, he had the OPTION of going home instead of chunking WHATEVER it was at (or back at) the police.

[rogue06]

Evidently, the REASON there were six shots was because the majority of those shots, according to the celebrity autopsy expert, were not fatal, and would NOT have stopped a 300 lb man charging the police officer (if, in fact, that's what happened). And, if the officer was shooting to kill, he must have been not so good a marksman, because NONE of the shots were "center mass".

(Note that, in the "heat of battle", even a really GOOD marksman can, if not very practiced under pressure, repeatedly miss "center mass")

It is amazing how things are entirely different in real life in a life-threatening situation than they are in some shooting range.

I don't know how they train police officers to fire their handguns but I see so many folks practicing and taking at least 5 seconds between shots. Last year when I was with my brother I timed him at between 7 and 8 seconds. In contrast I fired all 9 rounds in under 4 seconds. When he tried it he only hit the target once and was frustrated as a result. I pointed out that in real life you will likely not have the luxury of stopping and carefully re-aiming between shots and he should train himself to fire quickly. By the end of the day he was hitting the target 2 or 3 times.

Then I showed him how I prefer to train

I ran targets out at different distances on several of the "lanes" (we were the only ones there) and then turned out all the lights except one which I adjusted so that it shined in my face. Finally I had him work the mechanism that moved the targets out to position so that it was "charging" inward. I then drew and rapidly fired at the various targets.

I hit each of the four targets (I use human silhouettes and use chalk to draw a line from where the eyes would be down to mid stomach). The target on my far left was struck 2" from the chalk line in mid chest with another shot striking the jaw. The second one (the moving target) was struck in the right hip and elbow. The one directly in front was struck on the chalk line high on the chest with the other round missing just over the left shoulder. The last target which was on my right was struck twice in the right shoulder.

When I was younger and with better eyesight I used to do better.