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  • Homosexuality debate (split from climate change thread)

    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    Slap-Shot Climate Science; Michael Mann Takes Another Swing at His Climate Change Critics

    The Washington Times (Washington, DC)

    March 7, 2012 | Copyright

    Byline: Anthony J. Sadar, SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    [snip]

    In a new book, The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars: Dispatches from the Front Lines, Mr. Mann, a Penn State University professor and director of the university's Earth System Science Center, proffers a solid defense of the hockey-stick climate reconstruction of the past 1,000 years. ....

    Mr. Mann's book will undoubtedly be quoted and referenced for many years to come to support the current status quo in the academic world of climate science. But therein lies one of the book's major weaknesses: It represents a limited perspective.

    Throughout The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars, there is the continuous resorting to childish, unprofessional name-calling. Mr. Mann seems to relish the phrase climate change denier. On one page alone (Page 193), he uses the silly phrase or some variant of it seven times. The phrase is obviously absurd because no one denies that climate changes.

    Such childishness is related to a limited perspective and belies a narrow progressive political tactic to smear anyone who dares to challenge established orthodoxy....

    The book's unintentionally arrogant tone, all too typical of progressive academia, is perhaps a hint of what, unfortunately, irritates Americans....

    To read the full text of this article and others like it, try us out for 7 days, FREE!
    Don't forget that APA and it's "Homosexuality is not a mental disorder, and if you disagree, you're homophobic" screed. Sure, many members of the organization, including its former president, have come forth saying that they changed the classification purely for political reasons and not because of scientific research, and sure, they recently held a vote to reclassify it as a mental disorder, which 40% of the organization voted in favor of doing.....but, you know, that's homophobic.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  • #2
    Homosexuality debate (split from climate change thread)

    Sigh.

    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Don't forget that APA and it's "Homosexuality is not a mental disorder, and if you disagree, you're homophobic" screed.
    Gross misrepresentation of the situation.

    Sure, many members of the organization, including its former president, have come forth saying that they changed the classification purely for political reasons and not because of scientific research
    So wrong. There actually exists and existed scientific research indicating that homosexuality should not be considered a mental disorder. Pretty much any college level psychology textbook will tell you this. The classification change was not purely for political reasons.

    and sure, they recently held a vote to reclassify it as a mental disorder, which 40% of the organization voted in favor of doing....
    Gonna need a source for that claim.

    but, you know, that's homophobic.
    In the months that I've been on this revamped forum, I don't think I've ever seen you talk about homosexuality in a calm, straightforward (no pun intended) manner. You've always been cranky and sarcastic when trying to comment on that issue. I have, however, seen you display appalling insensitivity and ignorance, if not outright disgust. I also detect defensiveness in your tone, as if the heavy sarcasm is ultimately a facade to mask some deep disturbed feeling about the word "homophobia" being applied to you. Given all this, I have reason to suspect that ironically, what people mean by homophobia (which I ordinarily believe is a term that's misused) does in fact describe your behavior and attitudes. You give me little reason to believe otherwise, quite frankly. But you can, of course, attempt to explain your positions and attitudes.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

    Comment


    • #3
      Gross misrepresentation of the situation.
      No it isn't.

      So wrong. There actually exists and existed scientific research indicating that homosexuality should not be considered a mental disorder. Pretty much any college level psychology textbook will tell you this. The classification change was not purely for political reasons.
      Eh, no, there really isn't. It was done purely for political reasons.

      Gonna need a source for that claim.
      Alright, well, I have to admit, it wasn't that "recent", but still. It was during an APA referendum in 1974, you could probably find it in their records. Still though, almost half of them voted against it.

      In the months that I've been on this revamped forum, I don't think I've ever seen you talk about homosexuality in a calm, straightforward (no pun intended) manner. You've always been cranky and sarcastic when trying to comment on that issue. I have, however, seen you display appalling insensitivity and ignorance, if not outright disgust. I also detect defensiveness in your tone, as if the heavy sarcasm is ultimately a facade to mask some deep disturbed feeling about the word "homophobia" being applied to you. Given all this, I have reason to suspect that ironically, what people mean by homophobia (which I ordinarily believe is a term that's misused) does in fact describe your behavior and attitudes. You give me little reason to believe otherwise, quite frankly. But you can, of course, attempt to explain your positions and attitudes.
      Oh boy, I just love pseudo-psychological analysis. If you want to know, though, yes, I don't like being called homophobic, because it's an infantile slur, made up for the purpose of slander. No different than "faggot", really.
      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

      -Thomas Aquinas

      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

      -Hernando Cortez

      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
        Gonna need a source for that claim.
        I was a psych major back in the day. I can no longer find any record, but the news papers and some psych sources wrote all about it. Actually it was two things that got the change done. Threats and intimidation by homosexuals (in the early 60s), followed by a mass of homosexuals going into psychology. No science at all.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
          Don't forget that APA and it's "Homosexuality is not a mental disorder, and if you disagree, you're homophobic" screed. Sure, many members of the organization, including its former president, have come forth saying that they changed the classification purely for political reasons and not because of scientific research, and sure, they recently held a vote to reclassify it as a mental disorder, which 40% of the organization voted in favor of doing.....but, you know, that's homophobic.
          I see there is a South Park episode dealing partly with this issue – “Cartman Sucks” – Series 11, Episode 2 – featuring a Christian conversion therapy camp.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
            No it isn't.
            Where has the APA ever declared "If you believe that a homosexual orientation is an example of a psychopathology, you have homophobia?"

            Eh, no, there really isn't. It was done purely for political reasons.
            A mental disorder is typically defined as a pattern of thoughts/feelings/action that on its own is deviant, distressful and dysfunctional. There was and is plenty of research and evidence showing that homosexuality isn't dysfunctional to the individual, since plenty of gay people can function perfectly well in society without needing drugs or medication. It didn't meet the "distressful" criterion, because research indicated that homosexuality on its own didn't cause the individual distress; socially-imposed religious/cultural standards did. Even the "deviant" criterion was called into question, because research revealed that homosexuality could be traced not only in virtually all societies, but also in the animal kingdom. With all the scientific research available, it could not have been purely for political reasons.

            Alright, well, I have to admit, it wasn't that "recent", but still. It was during an APA referendum in 1974, you could probably find it in their records. Still though, almost half of them voted against it.
            That was in its infancy. As the decades roll on and more research rolls in, the dissenting side has increasingly shrunk.

            Oh boy, I just love pseudo-psychological analysis.
            It's not pseudo-psychological analysis. Homophobia is defined as "irrational fear or aversion to homosexuality or homosexuals." I definitely don't think it's fair to consider homophobia an actual clinical pathology, but your posts do clearly show aversion to homosexuality, and the insensitivity and ignorance I've seen you display seem to qualify as irrational. I was essentially just going through a check-list and crossing things off, not performing psychoanalysis.

            If you want to know, though, yes, I don't like being called homophobic, because it's an infantile slur, made up for the purpose of slander. No different than "faggot", really.
            That brings back so many traumatic memories. Like that time I saw a bunch of teenagers on the street yell "Hey! That punk over there doesn't think gay people should be treated with equal respect and dignity!" and proceeded to corner the guy, beat him up, and spray-paint 'Homophobes Should Die' on the wall just above his fractured skull. And that time when American society had legislation forbidding straight people to marry, and supporters counter-protested the protesters by saying "Don't let those homophobes and heteros destroy the institution of marriage! God's word clearly says that marriage is between a man and a man, and that being straight is an abomination! It's Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve! Straights can't be good parents; don't let those homophobes lead our children and country to hell!" And that time when AIDS was called "the straight cancer" during the crisis in the 1980s, and people said "Those AIDS-ridden homophobes are infecting our entire population with that hetero disease!" And that time when an extremist church group picketed funerals and spewed anti-straight messages, and said after every tragedy and disaster that "God was smiting that country for its acceptance of homophobes. There were five thousand or ten thousand people killed, and every last one of them was a homophobe or homophobe-enabler, and when they died they split hell wide open!"

            Indeed. Looking back, it's inspiring to see how far we've come since those dark days for straight people who--oh, wait. None of those things ever happened. But at least "homophobe" was used essentially the same way that "faggot" was used--no, that isn't the case either. Come to think of it, "homophobe" is COMPLETELY different from the usage of the word "faggot." This is what I meant when I said you'd displayed appalling insensitivity and ignorance.
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              I see there is a South Park episode dealing partly with this issue – “Cartman Sucks” – Series 11, Episode 2 – featuring a Christian conversion therapy camp.
              Ah, yes. The very point of that episode is that homosexuality isn't a mental disorder. Hence why Butters says "Alright, that does it! I am sick and tired of everyone telling me I'm confused! I wasn't confused until everyone started telling me I was!"
              http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155516/butters-speech
              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                Ah, yes. The very point of that episode is that homosexuality isn't a mental disorder. Hence why Butters says "Alright, that does it! I am sick and tired of everyone telling me I'm confused! I wasn't confused until everyone started telling me I was!"
                http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155516/butters-speech
                Homosexuality may not be a mental disorder, but it is a deviant behavior.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  I see there is a South Park episode dealing partly with this issue – “Cartman Sucks” – Series 11, Episode 2 – featuring a Christian conversion therapy camp.
                  Yes people, you are actually looking at a man who uses South Park as an arbiter for serious issues.
                  Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                  -Thomas Aquinas

                  I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                  -Hernando Cortez

                  What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                  -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A mental disorder is typically defined as a pattern of thoughts/feelings/action that on its own is deviant, distressful and dysfunctional. There was and is plenty of research and evidence showing that homosexuality isn't dysfunctional to the individual, since plenty of gay people can function perfectly well in society without needing drugs or medication. It didn't meet the "distressful" criterion, because research indicated that homosexuality on its own didn't cause the individual distress; socially-imposed religious/cultural standards did. Even the "deviant" criterion was called into question, because research revealed that homosexuality could be traced not only in virtually all societies, but also in the animal kingdom. With all the scientific research available, it could not have been purely for political reasons.
                    1) What research showed that the distress was not caused by the homosexuality itself?

                    2) You can't say that something is not deviant just because it exists in all societies. Murder exists in all societies as well. You also cannot use the excuse that "animals do it" because....well, they don't, actually.

                    It's not pseudo-psychological analysis. Homophobia is defined as "irrational fear or aversion to homosexuality or homosexuals." I definitely don't think it's fair to consider homophobia an actual clinical pathology, but your posts do clearly show aversion to homosexuality, and the insensitivity and ignorance I've seen you display seem to qualify as irrational. I was essentially just going through a check-list and crossing things off, not performing psychoanalysis.
                    The definition of "spearchucker" is "a black person", therefore, no black person should be offended if I call them a spearchucker, right? I'm just calling them what they are, right?

                    That brings back so many traumatic memories. Like that time I saw a bunch of teenagers on the street yell "Hey! That punk over there doesn't think gay people should be treated with equal respect and dignity!" and proceeded to corner the guy, beat him up, and spray-paint 'Homophobes Should Die' on the wall just above his fractured skull. And that time when American society had legislation forbidding straight people to marry, and supporters counter-protested the protesters by saying "Don't let those homophobes and heteros destroy the institution of marriage! God's word clearly says that marriage is between a man and a man, and that being straight is an abomination! It's Adam and Steve, not Adam and Eve! Straights can't be good parents; don't let those homophobes lead our children and country to hell!" And that time when AIDS was called "the straight cancer" during the crisis in the 1980s, and people said "Those AIDS-ridden homophobes are infecting our entire population with that hetero disease!" And that time when an extremist church group picketed funerals and spewed anti-straight messages, and said after every tragedy and disaster that "God was smiting that country for its acceptance of homophobes. There were five thousand or ten thousand people killed, and every last one of them was a homophobe or homophobe-enabler, and when they died they split hell wide open!"

                    Indeed. Looking back, it's inspiring to see how far we've come since those dark days for straight people who--oh, wait. None of those things ever happened. But at least "homophobe" was used essentially the same way that "faggot" was used--no, that isn't the case either. Come to think of it, "homophobe" is COMPLETELY different from the usage of the word "faggot." This is what I meant when I said you'd displayed appalling insensitivity and ignorance.
                    Yes, nothing like that ever happened....I mean, there was that one case of a guy getting fired for supporting traditional marriage...and another case of a pastor getting put in the hospital by a homosexual mob.....and another case of German homosexuals attacking anti-gay protesters by throwing human feces at them....and that other case of the LGBT having a "hit-list" of anti-gay businesses to go harass, threaten, sue, and sometimes, violently attack, if needed, no, none of those happened, it's just too inconvenient for you.
                    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                    -Thomas Aquinas

                    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                    -Hernando Cortez

                    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That was in its infancy. As the decades roll on and more research rolls in, the dissenting side has increasingly shrunk.
                      Eh, no it hasn't, it's just being threatened out of existence.
                      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                      -Thomas Aquinas

                      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                      -Hernando Cortez

                      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                        Eh, no it hasn't, it's just being threatened out of existence.
                        Just like the early 60s. Still goes on.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                          2) You can't say that something is not deviant just because it exists in all societies. Murder exists in all societies as well. You also cannot use the excuse that "animals do it" because....well, they don't, actually.
                          errmm. yes, it is known in a number of animal species. Prostitution is also known in one or more species. likewise masturbation, and using inanimate objects. However, the definition of "deviant" as presented here is highly questionable. If deviation is considered as significant deviance from normal patterns, the behaviour is deviant - in fact, some informal surveys suggest that incestuous relationships may be more common than homosexual relationships. A mere 2 or 3 percent occurrence (as for homosexual relationships) cannot be considered normal.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            yes, it is known in a number of animal species
                            Eh, no. Most of the examples shown to support this are not genuine attractions between the two animals, most supposedly homosexual behavior between animals are just a way to avoid violent conflict, or as an act of domination.
                            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                            -Thomas Aquinas

                            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                            -Hernando Cortez

                            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                              1) What research showed that the distress was not caused by the homosexuality itself?
                              Things like depression and anxiety disorder, which virtually every educated person considers to be genuine mental disorders, directly cause negative feelings by inhibiting neurotransmitters. This doesn't happen in gay people, and the same data that shows that many of them can function perfectly well in society also shows that they can be content with their orientation and not feel distress.

                              2) You can't say that something is not deviant just because it exists in all societies. Murder exists in all societies as well.
                              However, there are some mental disorders that are (or at least have been) found only in specific regions of the world and nowhere else. That's not the case with homosexuality. Either way, "deviance" should be the least of anyone's concerns. A pattern of thoughts/feelings/actions has to meet all three criteria to qualify as a mental disorder; merely meeting one doesn't count.

                              You also cannot use the excuse that "animals do it" because....well, they don't, actually.
                              Oh, but they do. It's true that some observed same-sex animal couples don't exclusively or permanently form same-sex bonds, but you can't hand-wave all that data away based on the lack of permanence. Besides, at least one species--domesticated sheep--apparently does seem to have a same-sex orientation. Not that I think "well, animals do it too" is particularly useful in other arguments pertaining to homosexuality, but the fact remains that it is found in the animal kingdom and as such appears to be a rare but natural variation of sexuality.

                              The definition of "spearchucker" is "a black person", therefore, no black person should be offended if I call them a spearchucker, right?
                              No, the definition of "spearchucker" is "a person who chucks spears." Society has formed a colloquial definition that applies it to black people. Meanwhile, the definition of "homophobe" is "someone with an irrational aversion to homosexuality." It's a frequently misused word, but it isn't comparable to "spearchucker" or "faggot."

                              Yes, nothing like that ever happened....I mean, there was that one case of a guy getting fired for supporting traditional marriage...and another case of a pastor getting put in the hospital by a homosexual mob.....and another case of German homosexuals attacking anti-gay protesters by throwing human feces at them....and that other case of the LGBT having a "hit-list" of anti-gay businesses to go harass, threaten, sue, and sometimes, violently attack, if needed, no, none of those happened, it's just too inconvenient for you.
                              There is a world of difference between a few recent isolated incidents of heterosexuals being hurt and the widespread, systemic mistreatment and injustice that affected gay people on a cultural and institutional level for centuries. I don't know why you find this to be such a difficult concept to comprehend. A gay person being mean to you on a personal level does not magically turn straight white upper-middle-class Christians into a persecuted minority. And I'm not sure what case you're referring to when you say "a guy got fired for supporting traditional marriage," but of the cases that I've heard about in recent months, I suspect that it's more complex than "You personally believe in traditional marriage? You're fired."

                              Eh, no it hasn't, it's just being threatened out of existence.
                              That's really not the case. If you're not going to look through the research yourself, you could at least do what many heterosexuals have done and personally interact with and befriend gay people. It's exceedingly difficult to listen to their words, talk with them, and then say with a straight face that they're afflicted with mental illness or can't be good parents. Or that they're rebelling against God and are trying to advance some homosexual agenda.
                              Last edited by fm93; 07-26-2014, 02:20 PM.
                              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                              Comment

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