Originally posted by seer
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We All Live On Stolen Land...
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostPlease note that in my post, I didn't attribute a motive or reason for the Jewish leaders wanting Jesus dead. You are imposing 'blasphemy' on to my post and I resent that."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIt's a metaphor. Every pious Jew was believed to be a son of God. The phrase did not carry the same meaning in Jerusalem as it would have done in Corinth, Alexandria, or Ephesus.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostMetaphor for what? Christ did not say he was a son of God, but THE Son of God - definite article. That is why in John they picked up stones to stone him for the same claim. And there would be no reason for the high priest to even ask the question if they did not see that as something different than merely being a son of God...It was part of the accusation.
As I noted in my previous reply, within the Gentile Hellenistic world that phrase did not carry the same meaning as it did in Jerusalem."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostActually it was the Jewist leaders and elites that did this. There's no indication that the common Jew was involved in the plotting. (Yes, I know about the mob that chanted crucify him. I also know how easy it easy to form a mob and direct them at what you want.)
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThe trials occurred during the Passover when hundreds of thousands of Jewish pilgrims came to Jerusalem for the feasts. The mob was probably not locals, they probably never heard about Jesus or very little, so they were easily influenced by the Jewish elites (the ones orchestrating the feasts at the time) and how they described Jesus."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWe know that there were various individuals, prior to the First Jewish War who claimed, or were acclaimed as, the Messiah. In the second century CE Simon Bar Kokhbah was spoken of in the same terms but none of them were ever accused of, or tried for, blasphemy.
son of GodIn short, the writer of Mark [and those of Luke and Matthew] appear to be ascribing to Caiaphas their own understanding of Messiah equals Son of God.
As I noted in my previous reply, within the Gentile Hellenistic world that phrase did not carry the same meaning as it did in Jerusalem.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe story of the Passover Amnesty is a fiction that has to be viewed within the context of when the earliest canonical gospel came to be written.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostNo it wasn't.
Originally posted by seanD View PostThe max date is around 70 at the latest, but that's just an assumption; there's no clear evidence."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt wasn't his claim to be the Messiah that got him killed
Originally posted by seer View Post
Sorry that is just speculation
Originally posted by seer View Post, we know what the text say and that was a claim of Sonship.
Originally posted by seer View PostSince you could not refute it now you just call it a tale. I have no reason to assume that.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut we are speaking of the Jewish understanding. By Jews like Mark, John and Matthew."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWhat extraneous first century CE sources are you citing in support of that statement?
Once again, what extraneous sources are you citing?
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostOh yes it was. Claiming, or being acclaimed to have, messianic status was punishable by crucifixion.
What extraneous first century sources are you citing in support of that comment?
But not of divinity. See Psalm 110.
Consider when the first canonical gospel was written. Consider what had just taken place in Judaea. Consider the parody of Pilate we are presented with in the four canonical gospels where he is portrayed as a vacillating figure who finds "no fault" but who is compelled to acquiesce to the bloodthirsty demands of the Jews.
Those texts were all written anonymously.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThat you don't even know most critical scholars (I'm not even talking Christian scholars here) give Mark a max late date of 70"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo you at least agree that the Jews pushed for the death of Christ.
Originally posted by seer View Post
Why would I need an extraneous source?
Originally posted by seer View PostWhat does that have do do with the claim of Sonship?
Originally posted by seer View PostSo?
Originally posted by seer View Post
And, the earliest text are those of Paul, and Sonship is right there. Agreeing with the Gospels."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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