The reality of black and white disparities in the US

[Mountain Man]

Guilty and responsible are two different concepts. And I can bear responsibility without being guilty. In this case, we as the privileged class benefit from what has transpired before us, and black people suffer on account of it. We didn't create the problem - we are not 'guilty' of causing it - but we benefited from what the guilty did. We then, having benefited from the suffering of others, from what the quilty did, have a responsibility to try to make it right.

This is morality 101.

What you describe is commonly referred to as "white guilt", that is to say that all whites are inherently guilty of benefitting from unfair "privilege" regardless of the actions of the individual.

So you're guilty because you're white, and if you don't recognize your own guilt, it's because your "white privilege" prevents you from seeing it, which is definitive proof of your guilt.

[oxmixmudd]

What you describe is commonly referred to as "white guilt", that is to say that all whites are inherently guilty of benefitting from unfair "privilege" regardless of the actions of the individual.

So you're guilty because you're white, and if you don't recognize your own guilt, it's because your "white privilege" prevents you from seeing it, which is definitive proof of your guilt.

MM, I described what I'm tslking about , and its basic morality, basic maturity. "White Guilt" as you use the term is just a racist rebranding in an attempt to mock those that recognize their moral responsibility to try to solve the curse racism and slavery has brought to all of us.

[Mountain Man]

MM, I described what I'm tslking about , and its basic morality, basic maturity. "White Guilt" as you use the term is just a racist rebranding in an attempt to mock those that recognize their moral responsibility to try to solve the curse racism and slavery has brought to all of us.

Right, anybody who disagrees with you about racial issues is automatically racist.

You've become depressingly predictable.

[shunyadragon]

Right, anybody who disagrees with you about racial issues is automatically racist.

You've become depressingly predictable.

Not automatically, but you have a racist history in your posts, and added failing to recognize the white supremacy, and privilege in the history of the USA.

[oxmixmudd]

Right, anybody who disagrees with you about racial issues is automatically racist.

You've become depressingly predictable.

When have you posted any sort of logical counter to my posts about racism? The majority of the time when that is mentioned you are only about name calling and sarcasm.

When you do actually post content, You deny, but do not support your denials. you post time after time that which shifts blame from the McMichaels to Arbery, but almost never acknowledge news that further condemns them, You never post recognizing the racial disparities that exist, but rather try to deny they exist. And you mock the concept of moral responsibility to the poor, the oppressed, which manifests here in that black/white disparity.

Your accusations are empty MM.

[MaxVel]

I can't recall anyone here recently who denies that there are differences between the wealth education, etc etc of the average white and the average black. What people do differ from you on is what exactly all the causes are, and how they should be best addressed.





I strongly suspect that 'cultural racism' is largely a bogus concept, unless that by it you mean Americans' distressing habit of seeing every interaction through the lens of 'race'. Far better to point to actual clear instances of racism, than to accuse a whole group (actually a whole race, ironically) of racism. The 'legacy of slavery' is another term that suffers from vagueness - there is, AFAIK, no-one alive today who was a slave, or owned a slave, or whose parents were slaves or owned slaves. And very few, if any whose grandparents were. So both these terms are imprecise and too easily used to attack the character and motives of someone else. 'You don't know it, but you are a cultural racist' - that discredits the person, but is vague enough to be impossible to refute. And, strangely, it seems to be applied only to people of a particular race....






This is a really problematic sentence, because you're attributing motive to people who may disagree with you over facts or causes or reasons for something. Effectively you're saying that someone who disagrees with you in some way on this issue, merely by their disagreement with you, is continuing racism and the effects of slavery. Your 'efforts to cast blame' is someone else's 'putting responsibility for people's choices on those people themselves'.

By taking this approach you've already framed the discussion in such a way that either people agree with your views or accept that they're contributing to racism etc. Can you not see that this framing inevitably leads to conflict and attacks rather than a real exchange where people can learn from each other?




That there are disparities no reasonable person denies. But disparities per se are not automatically evidence of unfairness or discrimination. Some disparities may be because of choices made by some groups and not by other groups. An example is the much-vaunted disparity in salary between men and women. Analysed more closely, and corrected for choices such as choice of profession, time spent in the profession, hours worked, time out of the profession and then returning, and so on it largely disappears.

So we need a closer analysis of these numbers, and particularly why they are different. For example, what is the effect of a behaviour choice - to have children out of wedlock and then abandon the family - on things like poverty, income, crime rates and so on? What do these figures look like when we compare groups that have similar rates of solo mother families?

Racism is a real problem, and we are not going to get to any solutions until we understand exactly what the causes of these differences are. Saying 'racism' alone is too simplistic, and I think, disempowers people. It says to them 'no matter what your choices, your problems are because someone else is acting wrongly towards you'. It creates hopelessness and fatalism. It enables copping out of personal responsibility. We have to say 'this problem is your fault, and this one is because of this person acting wrongly towards you'. We have to teach, encourage and reward people who make good choices, and for those who don't, we have to have some real consequences, and a helping hand to start again and make better choices. It is possible to overcome a tough background, discrimination and prejudice. That's the glory of America. We have to encourage people to do that, make those people the heroes and heroines. We have to stop enabling people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves.

There are some amazing black people out there - check out Daryl Davis - a black man who befriends and 'deconverts' Klansmen. More power to them. Get them supported by the government. Get them on TV, on talk shows, in the news. Ask people like that for their response when incidents happen.


Lastly, and importantly, - are you arguing for equality of outcome, or equality of opportunity? The former is impractical, largely impossible to attain in a society, and I think dangerous and damaging to that society. It disincentivises those who are above average from performing at a high level, and rewards those who are below average for 'being there' and no more. I suggest it is also unBiblical.

The latter is desirable, healthy, and mostly what we have. As well as being on average, low earners, we also have black people who are amoungst the highest earners - Jay Z, Beyonce, Oprah, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Lamar Jackson to name a few. We have black leaders in every walk of life. We had a black President. Not all these people came from 'privileged' backgrounds. This shows that it is possible for black people to 'make it', to achieve, to use their talents and skills and passion and drive to be among the very best in their chosen field. It is possible, but is it as 'easy' as it should be? Probably not.

But I submit that the answer is not more handouts that reward bad life choices, nor harsher laws on crime, nor 'leaders' who press the race button to get votes, nor a media that glorifies the worst of drug and criminal and irresponsible, selfish behaviour. It's not a society that jumps first of all, and to the exclusion of every other aspect, to 'race' whenever there's a problem. It's a society that treats everyone as people, just people; responsible, by and large, for their own life choices; and allows everyone to enjoy the consequences of their choices, both good and bad - with help and support for those who have stumbled or erred but are now heading the right way.

bump for oxmixmudd

[Mountain Man]

Not automatically, but you have a racist history in your posts, and added failing to recognize the white supremacy, and privilege in the history of the USA.

This accusation is false. I have never once posted anything racist in the many, many years I have been a member of tWeb.

[Mountain Man]

When have you posted any sort of logical counter to my posts about racism? The majority of the time when that is mentioned you are only about name calling and sarcasm.

When you do actually post content, You deny, but do not support your denials. you post time after time that which shifts blame from the McMichaels to Arbery, but almost never acknowledge news that further condemns them, You never post recognizing the racial disparities that exist, but rather try to deny they exist. And you mock the concept of moral responsibility to the poor, the oppressed, which manifests here in that black/white disparity.

Your accusations are empty MM.

Like I said, your arguments are just one big kafkatrap, and I justifiably reject your attempts at emotional manipulation. I accept that there are differences between white and black society. I reject that I'm directly responsible for no other reason than the color of my skin.

I also reject your false accusation that I have tried to shift blame for Arbery's death exclusive to Arbery. Rather, I have simply cited facts which explain but do not justify the McMichael's actions. What's fascinating to me is that you seem to think that these facts in and of themselves somehow make the shooting justified when that's a conclusion that I have explicitly and repeatedly rejected, and so you deny certain facts that don't tell the story you want. That the McMichaels are guilty of killing Arbery is not in question. The extent to which they are guilty has yet to be determined by a court (but this is a discussion for another thread; it's just interesting to me how badly you mangle my position and then falsely accuse me of having racist views).

[oxmixmudd]

Like I said, your arguments are just one big kafkatrap, and I justifiably reject your attempts at emotional manipulation. I accept that there are differences between white and black society. I reject that I'm directly responsible for no other reason than the color of my skin.

I also reject your false accusation that I have tried to shift blame for Arbery's death exclusive to Arbery. Rather, I have simply cited facts which explain but do not justify the McMichael's actions. What's fascinating to me is that you seem to think that these facts in and of themselves somehow make the shooting justified when that's a conclusion that I have explicitly and repeatedly rejected, and so you deny certain facts that don't tell the story you want. That the McMichaels are guilty of killing Arbery is not in question. The extent to which they are guilty has yet to be determined by a court (but this is a discussion for another thread; it's just interesting to me how badly you mangle my position and then falsely accuse me of having racist views).

I haven't mangled your position, I've simply noted that the focus of your posts are elements that have no significant contribution to make to our understanding of what happened except in that it denigrates the victim. That focus is evidence of a strong bias against the victim. The most likely reason for such bias, given the victim is black and the shooters white is racism. Add to that the overly aggressive nature of the pursuit which has been largely ignored played down, and racism rise never higher as a likely explanation.

That conclusion is then reinforced by your focus in the floyd case, which again targets denigrating the victim or denigrating those protesting his death. Again, your bias is against the black victim and against those that would protest his death and the mannor of his death and systemic racial bias.

This is what you have done and what you continue to do. And so far, it all points to a racist bias on your part, although I have already noted that bias may not stem from overt, conscious, racist thinking.

[Mountain Man]

I've simply noted that the focus of your posts are elements that have no significant contribution to make to our understanding of what happened except in that it denigrates the victim.

This and the conclusions you draw from it are nothing more than your opinion, but you're stating it as if it were fact. You do this sort of thing a lot, and I don't even think you realize it. If I state an uncontroversial fact, and you interpret it as being "denigrating" to the victim (which I think is a fascinating response coming from someone who is quick to accuse others of racism), then that's on you, not me.

[oxmixmudd]

Sorry about the delay - you write a lot of text, I don't often have time to respond to such long posts comprehensively.

I can't recall anyone here recently who denies that there are differences between the wealth education, etc etc of the average white and the average black. What people do differ from you on is what exactly all the causes are, and how they should be best addressed.

While technically that is correct, it is misleading. The discussion is about systemic oppression and racism that is evidenced by those facts. The disagreement fundamentally is whether there is still systemic racism in our country - with the general thrust on this board and in white conservative circles being that these disparities exist because it is their(black people's) own fault - e.g. black people do not work hard enough to overcome them. But - that sort of thinking is itself ignorant of the reality of what the average black person actually faces in this country that is different from and more oppressive than what their white counterparts face, and is, in fact, part of the cadre of elements that is producing the systemic oppression and racism in this country.

I realize that to establish that as fact takes more than just saying it. But at the same time, I'm not going to try to tackle that rather huge task in a single post in this thread.

I strongly suspect that 'cultural racism' is largely a bogus concept, unless that by it you mean Americans' distressing habit of seeing every interaction through the lens of 'race'. Far better to point to actual clear instances of racism, than to accuse a whole group (actually a whole race, ironically) of racism. The 'legacy of slavery' is another term that suffers from vagueness - there is, AFAIK, no-one alive today who was a slave, or owned a slave, or whose parents were slaves or owned slaves. And very few, if any whose grandparents were. So both these terms are imprecise and too easily used to attack the character and motives of someone else. 'You don't know it, but you are a cultural racist' - that discredits the person, but is vague enough to be impossible to refute. And, strangely, it seems to be applied only to people of a particular race....

Your suspicion is simply false. Just this morning our pastor that focuses on racial issues gave a remarkable sermon this morning. His daughter and his son in law spoke along side him on these very real underlying issues - the issue of white privilege. He talked a lot about what it means to be part of the 'in' and part of the 'out'. He talked about how easy it is when you are part of the 'in' not to recognize the advantages you have. But how clear they are if you are part of the 'out'. His daughter told a story of how she and a black friend were out and she was pulled over for a headlight being out. She of course had no fear, why should she fear a police officer stopping her? She had a good conversation with the police officer and he gave her a warning. Only then did she notice how nervous and afraid her friend was. In her friends life experience, a police stop was something to be feared, something dangerous. The difference between growing up white, and growing up black.

This is a mixed marriage, her husband, the son-in-law, was black. And he also talked about his life experience as a black man, about those he knew of in his community killed without just cause, about his own experience with what he called 'the other talk' - how to behave when pulled over by police to avoid being arrested or worse.

Your other comment, about 'no one alive to day was a slave' etc, is unfortunately ignorant of the long lasting effect of the past sin of slavery and past and present white oppression on the black community today. I would suggest reading a few books on black history, of studying just exactly how the legacy of slavery still has the black community under oppression in our mostly white country. You need to understand that a person growing up without opportunity has little chance to correct that for themselves after they are adults. You need to understand that this country has never actually abandoned racial prejudice in it's systems and customs. Overt racism is illegal - yes, but covertly there is a lot that happens. Again referring back to the pastor's sermon this morning - as a white women shopping in a store, she never even thought about being followed around or viewed as suspicious, yet that is not the average experience of a black women in the same store.

If you have not already, I'd encourage you to take a leap outside your comfort zone and try to converse with some people of color about their experiences in these areas, or read some books on black history, up to and beyond the civil-rights movement.

This is a really problematic sentence, because you're attributing motive to people who may disagree with you over facts or causes or reasons for something. Effectively you're saying that someone who disagrees with you in some way on this issue, merely by their disagreement with you, is continuing racism and the effects of slavery. Your 'efforts to cast blame' is someone else's 'putting responsibility for people's choices on those people themselves'.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/18/u...-and-jews.html

Source: above

In one entry, Mr. Haldeman, referring to the President as "P," said: "P emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to. Pointed out that there has never in history been an adequate black nation, and they are the only race of which this is true. Says Africa is hopeless. The worst there is Liberia, which we built."

© Copyright Original Source

P here is Nixon.

If one focuses on what is 'their fault','their choices' without first taking into account the massive disparities and oppressive life experience that is NOT 'their fault' or which limits 'their choices', then that is - ignorantly or not - casting blame unfairly on the black community.

This is not merely my opinion. Nor is it 'just because they disagree with me'. To reach any sort of sound judgement on this situation, one must be aware of and recognize the sorts of disparities and oppression that actually do exist. Denial is not a component of sound judgement.

My experience is most of us white people grow up in our bubble of white privilege and never have a clue that we are experiencing any sort of special privilege. Only if we listen to those that have not had that privilege a part of their lives can we come to understand just have much we've been given, and just how much has been taken away from them.

By taking this approach you've already framed the discussion in such a way that either people agree with your views or accept that they're contributing to racism etc. Can you not see that this framing inevitably leads to conflict and attacks rather than a real exchange where people can learn from each other?




That there are disparities no reasonable person denies. But disparities per se are not automatically evidence of unfairness or discrimination. Some disparities may be because of choices made by some groups and not by other groups. An example is the much-vaunted disparity in salary between men and women. Analysed more closely, and corrected for choices such as choice of profession, time spent in the profession, hours worked, time out of the profession and then returning, and so on it largely disappears.

Studies I've seen show the opposite. But male/female pay disparity is a sidebar. Before you try to say that the disparities exist because of 'choices' made 'by some groups', you must first deal with the real disparities that exist independent of choice. Because at the very least real disparities limit (or create) choices. Even in your sidebar, some of the different choices may be the consequence of the disparity, not its driver.

So we need a closer analysis of these numbers, and particularly why they are different. For example, what is the effect of a behaviour choice - to have children out of wedlock and then abandon the family - on things like poverty, income, crime rates and so on? What do these figures look like when we compare groups that have similar rates of solo mother families?

OTOH, how much does men having a greater probability of incarceration for the same crime white/black create more (%) solo mother families?

Racism is a real problem, and we are not going to get to any solutions until we understand exactly what the causes of these differences are. Saying 'racism' alone is too simplistic, and I think, disempowers people. It says to them 'no matter what your choices, your problems are because someone else is acting wrongly towards you'. It creates hopelessness and fatalism. It enables copping out of personal responsibility. We have to say 'this problem is your fault, and this one is because of this person acting wrongly towards you'. We have to teach, encourage and reward people who make good choices, and for those who don't, we have to have some real consequences, and a helping hand to start again and make better choices. It is possible to overcome a tough background, discrimination and prejudice. That's the glory of America. We have to encourage people to do that, make those people the heroes and heroines. We have to stop enabling people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves.

The problem here is that the existing disparities are well documented and historical. As I've pointed out, ~250 (I've mistakenly said 400 in some past posts) years of slavery had a very real effect on family, culture, outlook on life, education. Another 100 years of oppression, lynchings, overt racism including separate but 'equal'. And then even decades after the civil rights movement, there are still huge disparities in basic privileged that this thread points out. We simply do not begin from the same place, on average, if we are white or if we are black. 10 fold less net worth. Real fear from the Police rather than a sense they are protectors. Crime, drugs, poor education opportunities and facilities. These take their toll.

One of the hidden elements of covert racism is right in your reply. What you are proposing is that we idolize and put up as examples of 'good black folk' that have the RARE fortitude to overcome obstacles far fewer (%) whites ever have to face. But the real question is: Why do black people on average have to overcome obstacles most white people never face? But your recommendation codifies this as ok, normal. "Just work harder, then you can be free".

Can you understand what that implies?

There are some amazing black people out there - check out Daryl Davis - a black man who befriends and 'deconverts' Klansmen. More power to them. Get them supported by the government. Get them on TV, on talk shows, in the news. Ask people like that for their response when incidents happen.

Yes - there are. I was privy to know one at my time at KSC. A man from the slums of Phili that clawed his way up to a Senior Programming Engineer. Incredibly smart man. Christian. Wonderful person in every way. As I listened to his stories, the obstacles he faced to reach what he achieved, all I could think of was the simple fact that I doubted seriously if I had had to face what he faced I would have made it even halfway through his journey.

He was inspiring to ME - a white fellow that never knew what he faced. Yes, there are truly amazing people out there, and they are inspirations and should be inspirations to everyone. But the problem is, it simply should not be so much harder for the average black person to succeed than it is for the average white person.

And to a very large extent the POWER to make that change happen is in our white hands.

Lastly, and importantly, - are you arguing for equality of outcome, or equality of opportunity? The former is impractical, largely impossible to attain in a society, and I think dangerous and damaging to that society. It disincentivises those who are above average from performing at a high level, and rewards those who are below average for 'being there' and no more. I suggest it is also unBiblical.

The latter is desirable, healthy, and mostly what we have. As well as being on average, low earners, we also have black people who are amoungst the highest earners - Jay Z, Beyonce, Oprah, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Lamar Jackson to name a few. We have black leaders in every walk of life. We had a black President. Not all these people came from 'privileged' backgrounds. This shows that it is possible for black people to 'make it', to achieve, to use their talents and skills and passion and drive to be among the very best in their chosen field. It is possible, but is it as 'easy' as it should be? Probably not.

But I submit that the answer is not more handouts that reward bad life choices, nor harsher laws on crime, nor 'leaders' who press the race button to get votes, nor a media that glorifies the worst of drug and criminal and irresponsible, selfish behaviour. It's not a society that jumps first of all, and to the exclusion of every other aspect, to 'race' whenever there's a problem. It's a society that treats everyone as people, just people; responsible, by and large, for their own life choices; and allows everyone to enjoy the consequences of their choices, both good and bad - with help and support for those who have stumbled or erred but are now heading the right way.

I've never proposed handouts. They can disrespect the person as much as racism. Indeed, if you heard Al Sharpton's eulogy he said exactly that.
But there is a lot to do that is not a handout, and a lot that needs to be done, it will be very hard to eliminate the obstacles and the disparities that exist. Many of them are dug in like ticks, welded into our culture and they will be very hard to overcome.

Another story from my pastors sermon. One of the early days of this ministry was a Black church reaching out for help restoring their failing building. The Pastor as he toured their facility felt God was saying "YES" we must help. So they did. They brought in over 100 volunteers and restored that black institution of faith's meeting place.

Only a few days later to have it defaced by racists in the area with paint balls and the "N" word scrawled across its walls.

In 2020 50+ years after the Civil Rights Amendment, the problem is deep, the problem is overt and covert, the problem is cultural and financial. And it will take EVERYONE working to overcome it to actually overcome it.

But it starts with putting an end to blaming the oppressed themselves. First lets fix the external problems. Lets join with the protesters and demand systemic change. Let those of us that are white not just be quiet when we observe racism but actively speak against it when we see it. Let's not tolerate racist memes and stereotypes. Give no place to leaders that quietly get support from overt racists. As the pastor's daughter suggested, if we are out and see a black person confronted by police, just stand near - abuse is less likely to happen if white people are watching/recording. Learn what black people face by asking black friends about how it is for them.

[Charles]

I haven't mangled your position, I've simply noted that the focus of your posts are elements that have no significant contribution to make to our understanding of what happened except in that it denigrates the victim. That focus is evidence of a strong bias against the victim. The most likely reason for such bias, given the victim is black and the shooters white is racism. Add to that the overly aggressive nature of the pursuit which has been largely ignored played down, and racism rise never higher as a likely explanation.

That conclusion is then reinforced by your focus in the floyd case, which again targets denigrating the victim or denigrating those protesting his death. Again, your bias is against the black victim and against those that would protest his death and the mannor of his death and systemic racial bias.

This is what you have done and what you continue to do. And so far, it all points to a racist bias on your part, although I have already noted that bias may not stem from overt, conscious, racist thinking.

The pettern in Mountain Man's posts is pretty obvious and the idea we would not or should not note the racist bias due to a statement that he is not trying to justify what happened is so naive. So is the idea that we should buy into the idea he is only concerned about facts, when, obviously, only certain "facts" are Interesting to him.

It all points to a racist bias.

[oxmixmudd]

This and the conclusions you draw from it are nothing more than your opinion, but you're stating it as if it were fact. You do this sort of thing a lot, and I don't even think you realize it. If I state an uncontroversial fact, and you interpret it as being "denigrating" to the victim (which I think is a fascinating response coming from someone who is quick to accuse others of racism), then that's on you, not me.

Sorry MM. Your focus on 'trespassing' is not JUST an 'incontrovertable fact'. It is at this point COMPLETELY irrelevant - nothing Arbery did justified the chase. And it's use in the Arbery thread is to paint Arbery as a theif and/or to provide justification for the chase. That is all. The context of the posts makes that absolutely clear. Use of phrases like 'case the place', focus on 'citizens arrest' statutes. It's all about painting Arbery as a criminal.

OTOH, the real evidence that matters is that these three men were pursuing an innocent man (my how your hairs bristle every time I say 'innocent' - innocent of any offense that could possibly justify the chase itself) aggressively, violently. And without just cause.

The real evidence is that in that pursuit they blocked him in, even hitting him at least one time, refusing to allow him to leave the neighborhood.

https://www.wtva.com/content/news/571015632.html

This is what should be emphasized at this point MM: How crazy and absurd this chase was, how negligent and irresponsible these men were with human life, how afraid for his life Arbery must have been during that chase.

That is what matters if the white man and the black man are truly equal.

[Mountain Man]

...nothing Arbery did justified the chase.

Right, something I have repeatedly and emphatically stated throughout the other thread, and yet you continue to falsely accuse me of trying to justify his death.

[whag]

Right, something I have repeatedly and emphatically stated throughout the other thread, and yet you continue to falsely accuse me of trying to justify his death.