Lab Leak: The conspiracy theory is shaping up to look like real possibility

[seanD]

It's obvious they were ridiculing the idea that the virus was an engineered bioweapon released deliberately.

That may not be what Tom Cotton was claiming, but when you want to make a point that looks suspiciously like a widely circulated conspiracy theory, it's best to highlight how what you are saying is different.

I admittedly didn't know what all those articles were specifically claiming because i hadn't read them all, but I had doubts about what you said was true because you're not a credible person to me, so I searched for the "Lab leak Covid-19 theory is like something out of a comic book, virologist says," looked at the report, and very little to my surprise, you are wrong.

[oxmixmudd]

It's obvious they were ridiculing the idea that the virus was an engineered bioweapon released deliberately.

That may not be what Tom Cotton was claiming, but when you want to make a point that looks suspiciously like a widely circulated conspiracy theory, it's best to highlight how what you are saying is different.

Exactly. The idea it might have leaked from the Wuhan lab due to a security lapse would be viable even if the virus has a completely natural origin. The idea China engineered a bioweapon and purposefully or even accidentally foisted it on the world is not something one embraces without very solid evidence that is in fact the case.

The Wuhan Lab origin then has then multiple facets:

Why would it have been there:

in the lab for general study
evolving in the lab to better understand corona virus evolutionary paths to a human contagion
engineered as a bioweapon

If it was there, how did it escape:

mistake
purposed

The conspiracy theories focused - without hard evidence - on the worst possible combinations and generally called for retribution of some kind which stoked hatred against innocent American citizens of Asian descent. And that is why those types of theories and rhetoric were pushed back against.

In the end the deep partisan divide and overt politicalization of the virus itself made it virtually impossible to deal with the multiple facets independently or rationally - on both sides.

[seanD]

Exactly. The idea it might have leaked from the Wuhan lab due to a security lapse would be viable even if the virus has a completely natural origin. The idea China engineered a bioweapon and purposefully or even accidentally foisted it on the world is not something one embraces without very solid evidence that is in fact the case.

The Wuhan Lab origin then has then multiple facets:

Why would it have been there:

in the lab for general study
evolving in the lab to better understand corona virus evolutionary paths to a human contagion
engineered as a bioweapon

If it was there, how did it escape:

mistake
purposed

The conspiracy theories focused - without hard evidence - on the worst possible combinations and generally called for retribution of some kind which stoked hatred against innocent American citizens of Asian descent. And that is why those types of theories and rhetoric were pushed back against.

In the end the deep partisan divide and overt politicalization of the virus itself made it virtually impossible to deal with the multiple facets independently or rationally - on both sides.

In the CNN article "Lab leak Covid-19 theory is like something out of a comic book, virologist says," the virologist was vilifying the lab leak theory, not that it was purposely released, so you both are wrong. I'm sure if I searched for the other articles "debunking" the lab leak theory, I'd find the same thing.

[rogue06]

Here is what I think.

Various unnamed people seem to think that back during Trump's administration people putting forth the possibility that a lab leak occurred were considered conspiracy nuts, and the evidence just "rumors" not worthy of taking serious by the MSM. Yet now that same evidence, which has come to light based on investigations by Trump's administration is now considered plausible and the idea that a lab leak occurred is worthy of the MSM taking seriously.

If it weren't for Trump's investigation in the first place none of this would have been known, meaning it WAS worthy of investigation way back in 2020. The only reason the MSM didn't take it seriously back then was because Trump was saying it. The MSM has run with stories based on a lot less than the "rumors" that a lab leak occurred.

And just using occam's razor the idea that a lab leak is not only possible but likely should mean that we investigate it.

1. The virus started in Wuhan.
2. There just so happens to be a research lab studying coronaviruses in the same location as the breakout.
3. The Chinese government did (and is still doing) everything they can to minimize their culpability, even to trying to blame it on the USA.

That alone is enough to make the idea of a lab leak plausible. The idea that it was purely coincidence that a new coronavirus just so happened to naturally occur in a location where there is a lab studying them is what is the most unlikely scenario.

It isn't just that the MSM ignored the possibility, in some cases they went directly after those who thought the possibility was worth exploring. Both the NYT and WaPo charged Sen Tom Cottom (R-AR) on disseminating a conspiracy theory when he called for called for an investigation to look into the possibility. The former declared Senator Tom Cotton Repeats Fringe Theory of Coronavirus Origins while the latter used an even more blunt headline Tom Cotton keeps repeating a coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked.

WaPo's reporting was typical in that they conflated the theory that there may have been an accident with the claim that it was deliberately released as a bioweapon. In the above story they quoted an expert denying the virus "was a deliberately released bioweapon," even though Cotton never said it was. Likewise an earlier with an earlier story, Experts debunk fringe theory linking China’s coronavirus to weapons research, there was no distinction made between it being an accidental release and being an intentionally manufactured as a bioweapon was made.

You saw the same sort of conflation elsewhere.

For instance, Slate declared in a piece called Where the Coronavirus Bioweapon Conspiracy Theories Really Come From:

Responsible outlets have covered the conspiracy theories, attempting to debunk them. But even some experts don’t seem immune here. One rejected the idea of the virus being a biological weapon and praised the Wuhan Institute of Virology as a “world-class research institution that does world-class research” to the Washington Post at the end of January. Less than a month later, he was tweeting sympathetically about a New York Post opinion piece claiming the SARS-CoV-2 virus, the virus that causes COVID-19, had escaped from the same lab

Apparently the author is incapable of making a distinction between the two. And of course, much like we heard just the other day from the NYT from their top investigative journalist on the Chicon coronavirus story^[1], the only reason people even think it might have been a leak is because of racism:

The rumors of a lab escape or a bioweapon stem from historical amnesia, a caricatured villain, and good old-fashioned racism.

Others issued other dark warnings as well. Vox reported:

In some right-wing news outlets and on social media, a dangerous conspiracy theory about the origin of the health crisis won’t die.

"A 'dangerous' conspiracy theory." Even mentioning it could be hazardous.

This was the sort of slip-shod "journalism" that permitted other news outlets like NPR to reflexively hand wave off any discussion of the plague having escaped from a lab as "debunked" and the "fact checkers" at PolitiFact to call the idea that the plague originated in a lab as a "debunked conspiracy theory" -- a finding and its "pants on fire" rating that have recently been retracted.

Given that all of this "new" information that has led to the MSM doing their "bootlegger spin" on the issue has been out there since early on, it is legitimate to ask is this a case of gross incompetence or was there a willingness to let China off because getting Trump was more important to them.







1.

Meanwhile, over at the New York Times, Apoorva Mandavilli, the paper's lead reporter covering the Chinese coronavirus, apparently doesn't want any investigation into where the virus originated from because ... say it with me now ... because it's raaaaaaaaaaaaacist.

Mandavilia_Tweet_lableak_racist.jpg

Yup. The very idea that the virus originated from a lab is racist.

[rogue06]

Okay, well, I searched myself and if this is what you were referring to...

This is what I was talking about. Since we don't have any clear context, sure, it could have been related to pandemic paranoia, but it could have just been a crazy germaphobe dude that didn't like people being near him. I see crazy like this all the time in downtown LA on public transit, just folks who don't like people and flip out when you invade their space. We've got to be extra careful of this lest we fall victim to the false narratives that social media and MSM are experts at. The leftist narrative that there is a wave of violence against Asians specifically related to the pandemic; I don't see the evidence for this outside of assumptions, misconstrued and misrepresented situations and attacks.

IIRC, the reason they were looking with charging him with a hate crime is that he specifically targeted the Asian man for spraying for "getting too close" while not spraying others who weren't Asian

[seanD]

IIRC, the reason they were looking with charging him with a hate crime is that he specifically targeted the Asian man for spraying for "getting too close" while not spraying others who weren't Asian

Okay, but are we sure it really is a hate crime, or is this just the way leftist prosecutors are interpreting it for maximum sentencing? I'm just saying we need to be careful how things even on video are construed before we know the facts and details, especially when it fits into a common "Asian hate crime" narrative. I don't think I have to tell you why that is.

But even still, this doesn't prove there is a wave of violence against Asians as result of the pandemic. Crime stats might do that, but even then there could be other factors.

[Sparko]

Okay, but are we sure it really is a hate crime, or is this just the way leftist prosecutors are interpreting it for maximum sentencing? I'm just saying we need to be careful how things even on video are construed before we know the facts and details, especially when it fits into a common "Asian hate crime" narrative. I don't think I have to tell you why that is.

But even still, this doesn't prove there is a wave of violence against Asians as result of the pandemic. Crime stats might do that, but even then there could be other factors.

People who hate will use any excuse to hate. Trying to stop all "causes" is a useless activity that will not stop hate. If someone hates Asians they will find a reason to keep hating them, whether someone calls it the China virus or not. Calling it COVID doesn't change the fact that it came from China, and if someone wants to blame Asians for what came out of China, they will do it whether it is called China flu or COVID-19. And even if it didn't come from China, those people will find some other reason to hate Asians.

[seanD]

People who hate will use any excuse to hate. Trying to stop all "causes" is a useless activity that will not stop hate. If someone hates Asians they will find a reason to keep hating them, whether someone calls it the China virus or not. Calling it COVID doesn't change the fact that it came from China, and if someone wants to blame Asians for what came out of China, they will do it whether it is called China flu or COVID-19. And even if it didn't come from China, those people will find some other reason to hate Asians.

Exactly. And being we're in a world of false leftist narratives about racism and hate being spun wild in MSM and social media, and in a world where someone misconstruing (whether intentionally or not) a video to make it go viral, is all the more reason to question everything, even no-context video footage.

[oxmixmudd]

People who hate will use any excuse to hate. Trying to stop all "causes" is a useless activity that will not stop hate. If someone hates Asians they will find a reason to keep hating them, whether someone calls it the China virus or not. Calling it COVID doesn't change the fact that it came from China, and if someone wants to blame Asians for what came out of China, they will do it whether it is called China flu or COVID-19. And even if it didn't come from China, those people will find some other reason to hate Asians.

That is not how it works Sparko. 'going along with the crowd' is a real phenomena. And when people in authority give permission to express hate or act on hate, more people will do it than would without that added incentive. It's human nature. So those in authority and power have a responsibility to keep things civil. Hatred or resentment expressed by a leader towards a group WILL manifiest as increased acts of incivility towards that group by those that follow or admire that leader, or those that secretly (or overtly) harbor that same hatred or resentment. This is the history of the world.

In this case, calling the virus the 'china-flu' is not a simple geographic designation devoid of negative connotation. It is an expression of blame. And that has and does manifest as increased overt expressions of hatred and disdain for Asian people in those so inclined.

[Juvenal]

From what I read in the state department fact sheet the three cases mentioned are still rumors and not confirmed. And Trump mentioned that they were investigating a lab leak LONG before they released the fact sheet, and it was all dismissed as nonsense. Yet now all of a sudden they are taking it seriously?

Trump drew an extra line on a map of the probably path for Hurricane Dorian, just one example of the tens of thousands of instances he went out of his way to earn a reputation as someone whose word couldn't be trusted. Someone who will lie about the weather will lie about anything.
.

At the White House on Thursday, Mr Trump was asked by a reporter: "Have you seen anything at this point that gives you a high degree of confidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the origin of this virus?"

"Yes, I have. Yes, I have," said the president, without specifying. "And I think the World Health Organization [WHO] should be ashamed of themselves because they're like the public relations agency for China."

Asked later to clarify his comment, he said: "I can't tell you that. I'm not allowed to tell you that."

Because the aliens won't let him.

Trump, tossing some Trumpian word salad.
.

He also told reporters: "Whether they [China] made a mistake, or whether it started off as a mistake and then they made another one, or did somebody do something on purpose?

"Somebody do something" isn't information. I have no idea why you keep talking about Trump. I have no idea why you keep defending him.

But it's not a good idea.

And it's not all of a sudden. Like I tell my kids, history didn't start when you started paying attention. The Kessler timeline includes suggestions of deliberate release on January 5, 2020, a week after the "urgent notice" from Wuhan about a particular virulent new respiratory illness. By the end of the month, the market theory was debunked. The drumbeat has been building since the beginning.

Read the timeline.

[Juvenal]

I understand its a Natural reaction to laugh when you are uncomfortable over realizing you have no valid argument.

A hitman shows up in Judge Gondwanaland's court.
.

"Judge, I wouldn't have done it if it weren't for the money."

Case dismissed.

You're a gift that keeps on giving, G. Never change.

[Stoic]

I admittedly didn't know what all those articles were specifically claiming because i hadn't read them all, but I had doubts about what you said was true because you're not a credible person to me, so I searched for the "Lab leak Covid-19 theory is like something out of a comic book, virologist says," looked at the report, and very little to my surprise, you are wrong.

I was referring to the NYT article.

But the same is true of your CNN article. None of the people interviewed claimed that a virus could not have escaped from the Wuhan labs. They were all arguing that it was unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 had been deliberately engineered. IOW, their idea of the "lab leak theory" had been unduly influenced by exposure to the conspiracy theories.

[seanD]

I was referring to the NYT article.

But the same is true of your CNN article. None of the people interviewed claimed that a virus could not have escaped from the Wuhan labs. They were all arguing that it was unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 had been deliberately engineered. IOW, their idea of the "lab leak theory" had been unduly influenced by exposure to the conspiracy theories.

Your initial claim was that they dunked stories of it being released deliberately. They also debunked stories it could have been engineered in a lab, irregardless of how it was released.

[seanD]

That is not how it works Sparko. 'going along with the crowd' is a real phenomena. And when people in authority give permission to express hate or act on hate, more people will do it than would without that added incentive. It's human nature. So those in authority and power have a responsibility to keep things civil. Hatred or resentment expressed by a leader towards a group WILL manifiest as increased acts of incivility towards that group by those that follow or admire that leader, or those that secretly (or overtly) harbor that same hatred or resentment. This is the history of the world.

In this case, calling the virus the 'china-flu' is not a simple geographic designation devoid of negative connotation. It is an expression of blame. And that has and does manifest as increased overt expressions of hatred and disdain for Asian people in those so inclined.

The problem is, we're not seeing evidence of any wave of Asian attacks based on the pandemic or politics (though we are seeing questionable and even false narratives about such attacks), and it's been more than year OMB correctly called it the "China flu." So, unless we look at something substantive like actual crime stats, you're basing your argument on feelings.

[Mountain Man]

In this case, calling the virus the 'china-flu' is not a simple geographic designation devoid of negative connotation. It is an expression of blame.

No it's not.

Perhaps that's why you might be motivated to call it that, but you don't speak for everybody.