Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThis is what I mean when I say that you are confusing correlation with causation. Since you concede that "patriarchal systems underlie the majority of human history" then why not blame all of society's ills on the patriarchy? It makes just as much sense. But then simplicio suggests that it's not patriarchy in and of itself that's the problem but some extreme form of it, which is a completely different issue. Anything taken to an extreme usually ends up on the wrong side of morality. Do you think children should respect their parents? That it is good to discipline a child? Then let's take that to an extreme and say that a child should be harshly punished any time he doesn't immediately respond to an order from his mother. So now are Biblical exhortations to respect one's parents suddenly a bad thing? Of course not. This applies to patriarchal systems as described in the Bible as well.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-13-2020, 11:19 AM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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No wonder Beth Moore is so popular. Two black eyes is a clear sign that there is abuse, and that it should not be glanced over or ignored. I don't see that as an emotional response, or a self righteous attitude. Things can change if the culture is changed. We have church too, to know that we have a problem.
Inaction is not really an option when standing before a social evil, in fact denying that it is a problem because of needing more info and more sociological studies. That is precisely the attitude which Aussie church failed to act.
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostNo wonder Beth Moore is so popular. Two black eyes is a clear sign that there is abuse, and that it should not be glanced over or ignored. I don't see that as an emotional response, or a self righteous attitude. Things can change if the culture is changed. We have church too, to know that we have a problem.
Inaction is not really an option when standing before a social evil, in fact denying that it is a problem because of needing more info and more sociological studies. That is precisely the attitude which Aussie church failed to act."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostBecause the abusive patriarchal systems of history are well documented...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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What do you think the whole me too, church too thing was all about? It was about women who were fed up with inaction.
You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an islated example at all.
It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.
There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThat doesnt answer anything and badmouthing me only makes matters worse. I asked for your fix it plan, produce it. Can you?
You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an isolated example at all.
It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.
There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNot to be confused with the non-abusive patriarchal system as taught by scripture and conservative churches.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-13-2020, 03:17 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostUnfortunately what is taught by scripture is hampered by the effect of the enclosing patriarchal culture on human nature. Recognize that Paul and Christ were already pushing back again the oppressiveness of the cultural patriarchy they were teaching or writing within, recognize that there is a bigger principle taught directly in scripture of equality before Christ, which specifically mentions male and female, of mutual submission and servant leadership, not to mention freedom from the law and legal systems of "do not handle and do not touch", and and we can be free then to unfetter the modern church from the ancient cultural elements that provide opportunity for the flesh in terms of the abuse of women.
What you're not getting is that there is nothing inherently wrong with a patriarchal culture, that the leadership role of the man was ordained by God from the beginning, and that it does not inevitably lead to the abuse of women.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostRight... let's reinterpret scripture to be more in line with current cultural norms. That's the wide road that leads to heresy.
What you're not getting is that there is nothing inherently wrong with a patriarchal culture, that the leadership role of the man was ordained by God from the beginning, and that it does not inevitably lead to the abuse of women.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostWhat do you think the whole me too, church too thing was all about? It was about women who were fed up with inaction.You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an islated example at all.It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostAccording to polls, there is anywhere from 60 million to 100 million Americans that attend church services weekly, out of these, at least 30 million are women, so we should obviously expect something just due to sheer volume. Just because something is on the TV or internet doesnt mean its as big of a problem as you think.
That is a classic emotional appeal that doesnt tell me:
- the extent of the issue
- the cause of the issue
- the solution, to the issue
- the implementation of the solution
Ive done safety communities before. Complaining about a problem and offering no solution, solves nothing. Now tell me the solution, do you even have one or is this just a way for you to bash non Catholics and act as though the RCC is perfect?
Yet, youve heard stories around here of victims, of domestic abuse, given help and care by their church, including help leaving their abuser, with several men and women saying domestic abuse is never okay and women should leave. We can pass anecdotes all day that say whatever we want to hear, it doesnt tell me a thing.
You havent told me the extent of the issue and have flat ignored others telling you the opposite with their own anecdotes. Maybe you should try objective facts vs emotional pleading.
Why do you assume that it is bashing non catholics? I have repeatedly noted that the similarities between the CC and nCC responses.
Some churches being spot on does not that the church's response is acceptable across the board. It didn't fly with many when the topic of was directed at Catholics, with good reason. There was no theoretical critical mass of victims needed before a church wide response would be needed. One was too much, and a pattern of failures was definitely unacceptable. Church too has documented the pattern of failures to act and act appropriately
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI completely agree with this. If Scripture does endorse patriarchy, that is the practice Christians should follow, even if it turns out that the best scientific studies unequivocally show it is harmful.
I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostLike other egalitarians, I do not believe "that the leadership role of [man] was ordained from the beginning." I believe equal partnership was the original created state, and that male-dominated hierarchy is an artifact of the Fall. I believe some NT passages *can* support patriarchy, but that on the whole, the NT shows there is to be no sex-based hierarchy in the home or in the church.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Biblically there is certainly a very solid case for equality of value and worth between men and women, just as there is a very clear case for a difference in roles and responsibilities within their marriage relationship. Equal (in value), different (in responsibility and God-given duty to each other in marriage)....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by simplicio View PostI guess pastoral responsiblity counts less that the statistical analyses, the theoretic constructs and theologies. A pastor confronted with the woman with two black eyes shouldn't need those things: the soul in need and in need of healing ought to be able to find refuge within the church. Church too recounts tale after tale of hard examples of the church's failures in its role of ministering to souls in its care. Emotion is not a handicap to Christianity, nor to the pastoral care of the flock.
Why do you assume that it is bashing non catholics? I have repeatedly noted that the similarities between the CC and nCC responses.Some churches being spot on does not that the church's response is acceptable across the board. It didn't fly with many when the topic of was directed at Catholics, with good reason. There was no theoretical critical mass of victims needed before a church wide response would be needed. One was too much, and a pattern of failures was definitely unacceptable. Church too has documented the pattern of failures to act and act appropriately"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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