Christianity Today Op Ed

[Bill the Cat]

The permits were requested for the same timeframe by coincidence?

Since there was talk of holding another rally at Charlottesville, and there was cross membership, the groups did coordinate, organize to have a successful rally. As the several rallies from earlier that summer. They wanted to place their best foot forward, and continue gaining support.

No. They both coincided with the Charlottesville City Council's vote to remove the statue.

[Sam]

No. They both coincided with the Charlottesville City Council's vote to remove the statue.

That can't be right: the vote to remove the statue occurred in February and April 2017. Richard Spencer held a tiki-torch rally in May 2017 and the KKK in July 2017. The Unite the Right rally was planned after Spencer's, at least, and possibly after the July KKK rally -- it appears that Kessler's petition was filed in late July or early August 2017.

--Sam

ETA: Kessler applied for the Unite the Right rally on May 30, 2017, after Spencer's May 13 rally.

[Sam]

I'll admit I wasn't expecting exactly this when attempting to track down the Flagger's permit.

"5 hours ago" means five hours ago today.

Image 002.jpg

[Bill the Cat]

That can't be right: the vote to remove the statue occurred in February and April 2017. Richard Spencer held a tiki-torch rally in May 2017 and the KKK in July 2017. The Unite the Right rally was planned after Spencer's, at least, and possibly after the July KKK rally -- it appears that Kessler's petition was filed in late July or early August 2017.

--Sam

ETA: Kessler applied for the Unite the Right rally on May 30, 2017, after Spencer's May 13 rally.

[Jaecp]

The left right, conservative liberal, and Christian non Christian fault lines all come into play here. I don't disagree with you, but no other post seemed appropriate for these remarks.

The Antifa was at several high profile events, which turned violent, and the left wing politics became intertwined with anti fascism so much that many on the right could not distinguish anti fascism from extreme left wing politics.

Then the summer of 17 had a series of alt right rallies, ostensibly to protect against the removal of Confederate statues. Charlottesville had some rallies which had a strong Antifa presence, Gettysburg had a rally in the Fourth with little Antifa presence. But the rallies were successful in putting forth the right wing agenda, while downplaying the racist items in that age da. The movement was presented and accepted as consistent with Christian conservatism. Sales of Confederate flags soared, and in my area it was displayed by some who had never flown it before then.

The Charlottesville really did not just pop up, it was the culmination of a summer long political campaign. The police response plan was modelled on the successful police plan of earlier rallies, in spite of the evidence that the scope and scale would be different. (the after action report was rather lengthy, noting the shortcomings of the police plan, I can't find it on the net, but read it when it came out. It is worth the effort to read.)

The Antifa was seen (with some reason, many antifas were hardly sympathetic to the faith) as a movement at odds with the Christian ethic. Simce the Antifa was seen as antichristian and the alt right had many Christian apologists, few Christians saw any conceivable place for Christians after the nature of the alt right was apparent.

Few could envision Christians marching alongside openly racist Nazis or the leftist and Marxists in the Antifa, so many concluded there was no Christian presence at the rally or counter rally. And it was reflected in the conservative media. This was in spite of calls, by Christians, for a presence at the rally, who did keep their church open, and Christians who travelled to the city from outside. Which made the claim of "outside agitators" absurd.

Any attempt to reduce the politics to simplistic dichotomies ultimately fails. The "fine people" remark is defended by people who recognize the symbolism of a president taking a stand against evil. Trump failed to score political points by making a symbolic statement against the far right fascists; a mistake more appalling considering his campaign was criticized for the early and enthusiastic support of the neo Nazis and neo confederates. Americans look to the symbolism of a president making benign remarks after a tragedy, the obligatory soundbite from the scene of the disaster.

Many forget the background

Yeah, if there is any truth the idea that antifascists/bloc/whatever dislike Christianity its only insomuch as political Christianity has been used as a weapon. The Hell Shaking Street Preachers were a fixture at local far right rallies here for awhile and they're like... militant westboro types, basically, real pieces of work. I can tell you that in my experience there is a lot of different religious groups that are in bloc. I know Christians who go out in bloc, but also more Christians that are part of the 2/3rds of the counterprotesters that are dressed up in silly costume or just dancing when the far right comes to town. Antifa is very in line with the Christian ethic, imho, and conservative political christianity is a perversion of said ethic.

The unfortunate truth is that while many people here can't imagine Christians walking with Nazi's thats mostly just a failure of their imaginations.

[Jaecp]

I try to always have an open mind. I understand that the way you defeat groups in the modern age is more through their other investigative activities. I agree that we also need "boots on the ground" to prevent violent gangs from ruling the day. I remember now where I got my first impression of antifa from. It was a video posted by someone who I no longer view as credible (Mister Metokur).

Good on you, man :)

Recent reports in portland include such great tidbits that local police didnt even treat the rallies as a series of connected events until late last year. Law enforcement might finally be waking up to this threat, but we're in the 4th year now of semi consistent violent rallies in my city and I'm ready for this to be over. We've had to deal with the chief of police hiding the fact that a far right group had freaking snipers at one rally in 2018 and it wasnt until weeks later that a foia request or something revealed it.

Community defense is common sense

[Sam]

Would be useful to see the permit applications, though that would likely require local access in Charlottesville.

Interestingly or not, I do not see any photos on the Facebook page of Flaggers rallying on August 11 or 12. Might be in the "mobile uploads" bin instead of the timeline bin but it doesn't look like there's a contemporaneous photo, though group photos of "rallies" (<12 people) dot the timeline bin elsewhere.

--Sam

[Sam]

That Facebook page is ... something else, too. It's like looking through a Lost Cause recycling facility.

[Jaecp]

DHS classified Antifa as domestic terrorist

That's a pretty understandable mistake to have made in September of 2017, just 2 weeks after the deadly Unite the Right rally, but antifascists aren't domestic terrorists. They're people who defend their communities from domestic terrorists.

[Sparko]

That's a pretty understandable mistake to have made in September of 2017, just 2 weeks after the deadly Unite the Right rally, but antifascists aren't domestic terrorists. They're people who defend their communities from domestic terrorists.

Go on, pull the other one.

Antifa have attacked police, invaded peaceful rallies and speeches, throwing rocks, punching people, attacking journalists, setting things on fire. All because they don't like free speech or anyone who thinks differently than them. All while hiding behind masks like the cowards that they are.

They ARE the fascists. And I suppose that means you are too. Sad.

[Jaecp]

Dude, it's still a comment section - perhaps why you stooped to attempting to defend it with a movie quote.

Oh noes! Guilt by association!1!1!1!1!!!!!1

I used to respect you, Sam, because although you were on the opposite side of the argument, your thoughtful input made me carefully think things through. Since you've returned, I'm afraid that's no longer the case.

OBP, consider this,

You, when kinda supporting me about asking for significant accomplishments instead of giant lists of everything down renaming post offices, still took a moment to insult me about how rarely I had a good point, but the whole issue was simply a bunch of conservatives inability to actually reply with something at all like I had asked for

This place has gotten worse over the last 3 years and I hope you realize that. Like, Trump supporters at rallies can be doing sieg heils and the only response is that people post pictures of democrats waving or whatever. Its nutty nonsense and part of the problem is that, not to be aggressive, your side is infested with some monstrous people that you and the rest of your side seem unwilling to admit the prescence of let alone do anything to fix the issue

Do you even know how many children have died in the camps along out border? When was the last time you even thought about that?

You're on the wrong side of things man, come over to me and Sam, we have cookies and a clean conscience.

[Jaecp]

Go on, pull the other one.

Antifa have attacked police, invaded peaceful rallies and speeches, throwing rocks, punching people, attacking journalists, setting things on fire. All because they don't like free speech or anyone who thinks differently than them. All while hiding behind masks like the cowards that they are.

They ARE the fascists. And I suppose that means you are too. Sad.

lol

[Sam]

You're on the wrong side of things man, come over to me and Sam, we have cookies and a clean conscience.

My having cookies and a clean conscience are mutually exclusive propositions. It's been cauliflower rice over here for a month now.

--Sam

[Jaecp]

My having cookies and a clean conscience are mutually exclusive propositions. It's been cauliflower rice over here for a month now.

--Sam

Hmm, I'll see if I can find a recipe for ricotta based cookies. You on keto?

[Sam]

Hmm, I'll see if I can find a recipe for ricotta based cookies. You on keto?

Generic caloric restriction with increased time on the erg. Reclaiming my jawline before it goes missing.

Current schedule is good for 16-hour intermittent fasting so I might try that out, too.

--Sam