Christianity Today Op Ed

[oxmixmudd]

They have put people in the hospital. That they didn't die is pure luck. They are a hate group, already as bad as the "fascists" they claim to be against. They hide behind masks and cowardly attack anyone who doesn't fit their beliefs.

Since when is "well, at least they didn't kill anyone" an excuse for violence?

Sparko - read my posts. Where have I 'excused' violence? That sort of response is part of the caustic culture of this site. I have for several posts now made clear I do not condone violence. Yet in asking the question you in fact accuse me of condoning violence when I have not.

In this case, they are on the right side by being against fascism in its many forms. But the violent aspect of it is simply wrong.

You are to a certain extent allowing yourself to be riled up against them by the same fascist, neo-Nazi forces they are against and we (all of us) should also be against by not keeping a balanced perspective of who they are relative to who they are against.

The balance here is to be against violence, but understand that what they are fighting against is itself wrong. So those groups that are the targets of their violence deserve no sympathy in that they have done - to this point - a good deal worse.

But antifa is on the wrong path by embracing violence. As I said, they will become what they are against. There is no way to avoid it if a group embraces violent tactics.

[Jaecp]

You mean the Andy Ngo that conspired with a fascist street gang to attack a bar and whom local members of the far right think faked the whole thing? That Andy Ngo?

[rogue06]

What? putting people in the hospital like Andy Ngo? Or the professor who was going around hitting people with a bike lock but was eventually outed by 4Chan?

And it's not like they haven't tried to kill people. What about the antifa guy who tried to blow up the ICE detention center? He sure was trying to kill people. If the police hadn't shot him he might have succeeded.
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A man fatally shot by police Saturday after allegedly throwing "incendiary objects" at an immigration detention center in Washington state was an anarchist who claimed association with antifascists - known as antifa - according to new details released by police.

Detectives are reviewing a manifesto written and distributed by 69-year-old Willem Van Spronsen
Van Spronsen is accused of approaching the center around 4 a.m. on Saturday, manipulating what looks like an AR-15-style rifle and setting fire to a building owned by the detention center. Police said surveillance video shows he placed flares strategically - including underneath a 500-gallon propane tank - ignited his own car so it would explode and threw molotov cocktails at nearby buildings.

As sirens signaled officers were headed to the center, where a peaceful protest had occurred eight hours earlier, police said Van Spronsen continued attacking the complex. He pointed a rifle at the four officers who arrived, police said, and refused orders to drop the gun.

The officers fired at Van Spronsen, hitting him twice and killing him, according to police.
...
"This could have resulted in the mass murder of staff and detainees housed at the facility, had he been successful at setting the tank ablaze," Shawn Fallah, who heads the ICE Office of Professional Responsibility, said in a statement. "These are the kinds of incidents that keep you up at night."

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/ice-...s-say-1.591161

All of that was obviously Trump's fault.

[Teallaura]

Thanks for posting this MM and I was unaware that he did also directly condemn Neo Nazis. I will take that larger context into account in the future.

Without sounding insincere to the above let me add that one key problem with Trump is that he often gives (multiple) answers which "both sides" are able to interpret according to their preferred narrative. That's not good and part of why we have the level of division in this country since it's hard for us to even agree on what are the base facts. If I were a neo nazi I might interpret his overall message as "Well, of course he has to *say* he condemns us, but he also said there were very fine people which is a wink that he didn't mean it." And you take it to mean "He condemned Nazis, why are you out to get Trump?" And I take it to mean "Why is it so hard to lay out a clear diatribe of neo nazis up front and then talk about everyone else if he wants to?"

Later in that interview he says



What he says is true but I can't avoid the feeling that this is elevating Bobby Lee to the same level as Washington and Jefferson. Why didn't he first say "Of course they're not the same" and then give his answer? I imagine you might say something like "He's just stating facts and you're seeing what you want to see." And maybe I am! But he could have also just been clear.

Soundbites are an unfair way to judge a person's meaning but in the Twitter age you have to *try* to be soundbite proof if you want to be clearly understood. Do you get where I'm coming from on this?

DO, is there a particular reason you decide to be nasty here? FYI, Lee favored abolition and was offered the command of the Union army. Had he not been an honorable man the North might well have lost.

Looking for the worst only guarantees that you will find it.

[Jaecp]

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Screenshot_20200108-113540.jpg

Here's a screenshot of a PM after local far right videographer and fixture at local doubting the series of events. This guy pals around with the same folks that Ngo does

Edity voice to talk messed up, lol

[oxmixmudd]

All of that was obviously Trump's fault.

Probably not directly.

But tell me, what exactly is Trump doing to turn this trend, what is he doing that might have a chance of doing anything other than to make it worse?

[Sparko]

Sparko - read my posts. Where have I 'excused' violence? That sort of response is part of the caustic culture of this site. I have for several posts now made clear I do not condone violence.

In this case, they are on the right side by being against fascism in its many forms. But the violent aspect of it is simply wrong.

That's just it. They aren't on the right side. They are against free speech. They ARE the fascists. Do you as a Christian think it is OK to use violence against someone you disagree with? Even if they are fascists? No you don't. So why are you defending antifa as "being on the right side?" It is never right to try to shut down free speech with violence, even if the guy speaking is a complete Nazi monster. That is what our first amendment protects. Speech we DON'T like.

You are to a certain extent allowing yourself to be riled up against them by the same fascist, neo-Nazi forces they are against by not keeping a balanced perspective of who they are relative to who they are against.

Say what????

The balance here is to be against violence, but understand that what they are fighting against is itself wrong. So those groups that are the targets of their violence deserve no sympathy in that they have done - to this point - a good deal worse.

But antifa is on the wrong path by embracing violence. As I said, they will become what they are against. There is no way to avoid it if a group embraces violent tactics.

They are fighting against conservatism and free speech mostly. Sure they are against white supremacists, but mostly they just attack conservatives at various rallies, like the Boston free speech rally for instance. Or when they went after Ann Coulter because she was invited to speak at Berkeley. But hey, they didn't kill anyone. Yet.

[Sparko]

You mean the Andy Ngo that conspired with a fascist street gang to attack a bar and whom local members of the far right think faked the whole thing? That Andy Ngo?

Wow, that's some spin there Jaecp. Got any proof?

[Sparko]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41944[/ATTACH]

Here's a screenshot of a PM after local far right videographer and fixture at local doubting the series of events. This guy pals around with the same folks that Ngo does

So some conspiracy guy? Using a fake name?

OK let's drop Ngo for argument's sake. There are a lot more cases of people being hurt by Antifa.

[Jaecp]

So some conspiracy guy? Using a fake name?

OK let's drop Ngo for argument's sake. There are a lot more cases of people being hurt by Antifa.

No, we can stick with Ngo. You've not even scratched the surface of his involvement

And no, Brandon Farley is a local far right videographer that's worked with Ngo before.

[Jaecp]

Wow, that's some spin there Jaecp. Got any proof?

Lol, dude, vet your stuff better. He got let go from Quillete over it. You're clearly googling randomly and probably using search terms where you're trying to find examples of wrongdoing by antifaschists. I live here. Get a deeper understanding of the situation dude

[oxmixmudd]

That's just it. They aren't on the right side. They are against free speech. They ARE the fascists. Do you as a Christian think it is OK to use violence against someone you disagree with?
Even if they are fascists? No you don't. So why are you defending antifa as "being on the right side?" It is never right to try to shut down free speech with violence, even if the guy speaking is a complete Nazi monster. That is what our first amendment protects. Speech we DON'T like.

They are on the right side in that they are taking a stand against WS and neo-Nazi's. They are on the wrong side in that they are trying to use force to express their dissent. Free speech is the issue the neo-Nazi's are USING in an effort to enlist others that normally would not support them in their fight against those that oppose them (antifa). I think it makes more sense to oppose the embracing of violence by both, and the ideology of the WS/neo Nazi's than it does to be used as a pawn by the WS/Neo-NAzis to effectively fight for their point of view against antifa. IOW, don't throw out the baby with the bath water. It is in everyone's interest to speak out against WS/neo-Nazi ideology. But by embracing violence, antifa dilutes their efforts by allowing for legitimate reasons to oppose them.

Say what????

Maybe the above makes it clearer. Free speech is important, but it is also a rallying cry of the WS/Neo-Nazis against those that oppose them. Antifa is figthing the WS/Neo Nazi ideology, as we ALL should be. But they have embraced violent tactics, which puts them in the wrong, and will potentially make them the moral equivalent of what they are against.

They are fighting against conservatism and free speech mostly. Sure they are against white supremacists, but mostly they just attack conservatives at various rallies, like the Boston free speech rally for instance. Or when they went after Ann Coulter because she was invited to speak at Berkeley. But hey, they didn't kill anyone. Yet.

Well that is where you need to rethink things. If conservatism can't be separated from WS/Neo-Nazi thought, then there is a problem. Christian Conservatives should not be part of any rally that features WS/Neo-Nazis, and those that show up to legitimate Christian Conservative causes should be as roundly condemned by the Christian conservatives as they are by antifa - just w/o the violence.

[rogue06]

Wow, that's some spin there Jaecp. Got any proof?

00000000000000ab000-00aaah.jpg 00000000000000ab000-00aaah1.jpg
Andrew Ngo "fak[ing] the whole thing"



00000000000000ab000-00aaah2.jpg
Andrew Ngo after "fak[ing the whole thing"

There are videos of this "faked attack" which I'd link to but since this involves antifa the language is like an open sewer. So if you want to see it you can copy this and go from there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WzMZxT-41k. It starts with an antifa thug stepping up and sucker punching him.

Talk about trying to blame the victim. Par for the course from wormtongue.

[Sparko]

No, we can stick with Ngo. You've not even scratched the surface of his involvement

And no, Brandon Farley is a local far right videographer that's worked with Ngo before.

Yeah Andy Ngo beat himself up and put himself in the hospital. Or maybe he hired Jussie Smollett to beat him up?

You want to ignore everything else like the guy who tried to blow up the ICE detention center, or that antifa professor who was going around hitting people with a bicycle lock. Very smart. Ignore everything but one thing you think you can say was "fake" because that means everything is fake, right?

What about this that happened in Portland where a Bernie Sanders supporter was beaten because he wouldn't give up the American Flag he was holding?
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A man assaulted by Antifa supporters in a video that went viral following a demonstration against a far-right rally in Portland, Oregon, says he is not a fascist but a Bernie Sanders-supporting progressive and registered Democrat.

On August 4, Portland-based far-right group Patriot Prayer rallied at the city's Tom McCall Waterfront Park. But it was opposed by a larger number of counter-demonstrators from various left-wing and liberal groups in the city.

Footage shows Paul Welch, 38, wrestling with masked anti-fascists for possession of the American flag he brought to the counter-demo. They demanded he let go of the flag, calling it a "fascist symbol," reported The Oregonian.

"The right and certainly a lot of smaller groups like Patriot Prayer might rush to things like the flag and try to take it up as, 'This is our symbol exclusively,'" Welch, a protest regular, told The Oregonian. "Part of my thinking was to take it back."

One of the men in the video beats Welch on the legs with a club-like object before striking him on the head with it. Welch is left bleeding on the floor, holding his head, as his assailants calmly walk off.

He feared he would be beaten to death but was taken to hospital by onlookers and his head gash stapled back together by doctors. Welch, who said he voted for socialist Sanders in the 2016 Democratic primary, was also concussed.
https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-viol...-video-1082072

He probably deserved it though, carrying a the flag of hate.

[Sparko]

Lol, dude, vet your stuff better. He got let go from Quillete over it. You're clearly googling randomly and probably using search terms where you're trying to find examples of wrongdoing by antifaschists. I live here. Get a deeper understanding of the situation dude

Ngo wasn't let go for that.

---
Conservative journalist Andy Ngo is no longer an editor for the website Quillette after the publication of a video apparently showing him witnessing a right-wing group planning a violent attack and doing nothing about it.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...video-surfaces