Confederate flags again

[simplicio]

The Battle flag of the confederacy is a treasonous symbol of insurrection against the U.S. whether you believe it was about the continuation of slavery or not. That's why you recognise it as a Battle Flag!

I doubt you and I disagree. But the symbol of the confederacy today was originally the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The flags (there were three) of the Confederate States of America are not nearly as common as the flag associate with General Lee.

Back to my question: What would you call some who carries the Nazi flag today, considering it a positive symbol?

[Sparko]

Odd how this thread has wander all over the world, and off topic.

Question: Can the Nazi flag be used to represent a cultural purpose other than what it was intended?

The "Swastika" symbol has been used by many cultures, Shuny. When a Navajo uses a swastika on a headdress or blanket are they saying they are Nazis?

[oxmixmudd]

The "Swastika" symbol has been used by many cultures, Shuny. When a Navajo uses a swastika on a headdress or blanket are they saying they are Nazis?

When a Navajo uses the symbol as part of a culture that precedes the Nazi's by hundreds of years, it represents what it does in that culture, and with that heritage. That is not the same thing as a modern person that is a part of western culture adopting that symbol and where it takes on then meaning it contains in that culture. It was, in fact, borrowed from other cultures and then perverted by Hitler.

Nevertheless, no modern person in Western culture can appropriate that symbol apart from the meaning Hitler gave it for it. We can grandfather as it were other legitimate uses in ancient cultures that precede Hitler. But even that must be handled carefully in the context of a modern nation post Hitler. Otherwise it has no place in the modern world because of how Hitler used it.

[oxmixmudd]

I doubt you and I disagree. But the symbol of the confederacy today was originally the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The flags (there were three) of the Confederate States of America are not nearly as common as the flag associate with General Lee.

Back to my question: What would you call some who carries the Nazi flag today, considering it a positive symbol?

Unless they are carrying it as part of the celebration of a culture that precedes Hitler's co-option of the symbol, it means they are identifying with Hitler and the Nazi's. That is all it can mean in this day when expressed in our culture. And only a very perverse person would even try to carry it in the face of a modern person as part of our modern culture, so heinous is what it stands for in that culture. It is a sick person that could take on that symbol within the western cultural context.

[JimL]

I doubt you and I disagree. But the symbol of the confederacy today was originally the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. The flags (there were three) of the Confederate States of America are not nearly as common as the flag associate with General Lee.

All created for the same purpose though.

Back to my question: What would you call some who carries the Nazi flag today, considering it a positive symbol?

i would consider one displaying a Nazi flag the same way I would consider one carrying a confederate flag, though the former I would consider even more detestable than the latter.

[shunyadragon]

Why not? If the people vote and the majority want to keep it, what's the problem?

If the majority wants to keep the institution of slavery, what's the problem?

[shunyadragon]

The "Swastika" symbol has been used by many cultures, Shuny. When a Navajo uses a swastika on a headdress or blanket are they saying they are Nazis?

We are not talking about just the Swastika, but theNazi flag and banner, which it is a part of.

[simplicio]

I think in the West its associations are still too negative and too fresh for it to be repurposed in a wholly positive way.

It could be used ironically, perhaps, by people who get labelled Nazis by Antifa /leftists and figure they might as well fly the flag if they're gonna get smeared anyway... ... sort of a meme culture thing

And ironically, this post echoes the views surrounding Pepe the Frog a few years ago. The Antifa, the liberals, the socialist-progressive front, demanded a forceful response to counter them. And at least some of that survived through until Charlottesville in 2017. Maybe it was some of that group which were referred to as the fine people.

But it was obvious that Americans as a whole, conservatives, Christians could not tolerate that flag. But can those values themselves associated with the flag be repurposed form the 21st century?

[MaxVel]

Yes, choosing to be associated with Hitler, Heidrich, and Streicher makes perfect sense! After all, the Antifa is out there!

I suppose that you would find it acceptable for a Christian to carry that Nazi banner, as long as it is carried with a proper sense of irony, and enough time has passed so it can be recognized in a positive way?

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at in my post

And just how can its associations be made to be seen in a positive light?

Have you ever considered why Nazism and the Nazi flag have such negative associations for so many?

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

No, never. When I visited Auschwitz a connection with Nazism never crossed my mind, at all.

Stop being an idiot.

[simplicio]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at in my post

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

No, never. When I visited Auschwitz a connection with Nazism never crossed my mind, at all.

Stop being an idiot.

You made the argument about whether the Nazi flag could be repurposed: That it could be used ironically because people would be smeared anyway by leftists. That is precisely why some did carry the banner in 2017!

The summer of 2017 had a whole series of rallies, including a couple at Charlottesville. And there were many who carried the Nazi banner and the Confederate flag noting the irony because of the Antifa. And many Christians in upstate NY flew the Confederate flag and noted that the leftist Antifa were calling them Nazis. The Proud Boys made the news for championing the irony needed to promote the conservative and anti-anti-fascist position. Seems rather Orwellian.

But after Charlottesville, the confederate flags were quietly taken down.

[oxmixmudd]

You made the argument about whether the Nazi flag could be repurposed: That it could be used ironically because people would be smeared anyway by leftists. That is precisely why some did carry the banner in 2017!

The summer of 2017 had a whole series of rallies, including a couple at Charlottesville. And there were many who carried the Nazi banner and the Confederate flag noting the irony because of the Antifa. And many Christians in upstate NY flew the Confederate flag and noted that the leftist Antifa were calling them Nazis. The Proud Boys made the news for championing the irony needed to promote the conservative and anti-anti-fascist position. Seems rather Orwellian.

But after Charlottesville, the confederate flags were quietly taken down.

Doesnt matter. There is no way to carry the nazi flag as representing you and not be identifying yourself with nazi view, hopes, and methods. There is nothing that can justify sending that message.

[simplicio]

Doesnt matter. There is no way to carry the nazi flag as representing you and not be identifying yourself with nazi view, hopes, and methods. There is nothing that can justify sending that message.

You are preaching to the choir.

Marvel made the point supporting the position of some Christians of two years ago. And I disagree with that position, that it cannot be carried, even with a sense of irony.

Similarly, the Confederate banner has always been purposefully associated with ideas we today recognized as white supremacy.

Will a swastika placed in a Jewish cemetery ever become appropriate and virtuous? Will placing a burning cross on a black family's lawn ever become good? Will dressing in sheets and marching through a black neighborhood ever become separated from terrorist connotations?

[oxmixmudd]

You are preaching to the choir.

Marvel made the point supporting the position of some Christians of two years ago. And I disagree with that position, that it cannot be carried, even with a sense of irony.

Similarly, the Confederate banner has always been purposefully associated with ideas we today recognized as white supremacy.

Will a swastika placed in a Jewish cemetery ever become appropriate and virtuous? Will placing a burning cross on a black family's lawn ever become good? Will dressing in sheets and marching through a black neighborhood ever become separated from terrorist connotations?

Let's hope and pray it does not. The jewish motto following the Holocaust was, is 'never forget'. And if we never allow what Hiler did and how he did it to be forgotten, then we can have hope the things you describe will also not happen.

[Sparko]

When a Navajo uses the symbol as part of a culture that precedes the Nazi's by hundreds of years, it represents what it does in that culture, and with that heritage. That is not the same thing as a modern person that is a part of western culture adopting that symbol and where it takes on then meaning it contains in that culture. It was, in fact, borrowed from other cultures and then perverted by Hitler.

Nevertheless, no modern person in Western culture can appropriate that symbol apart from the meaning Hitler gave it for it. We can grandfather as it were other legitimate uses in ancient cultures that precede Hitler. But even that must be handled carefully in the context of a modern nation post Hitler. Otherwise it has no place in the modern world because of how Hitler used it.

The confederate flag was never an evil symbol to begin with. It was simply a flag representing the southern states who were trying to secede from the Union. After the war it just became a symbol of southern pride. It wasn't until recently that people decided it was racist. So like you claim with Hitler, the liberals took a cultural symbol and turned it into something evil. They are trying to do the same with the Betsy Ross flag. So like I asked Shuny about the Navajo, should they continue to use the swastika in their culture even though Hitler perverted it? And if so, why should anyone give up using the confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag as a symbol of our culture just because some liberals want to pervert their meaning?

[JimL]

The confederate flag was never an evil symbol to begin with. It was simply a flag representing the southern states who were trying to secede from the Union. After the war it just became a symbol of southern pride. It wasn't until recently that people decided it was racist. So like you claim with Hitler, the liberals took a cultural symbol and turned it into something evil. They are trying to do the same with the Betsy Ross flag. So like I asked Shuny about the Navajo, should they continue to use the swastika in their culture even though Hitler perverted it? And if so, why should anyone give up using the confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag as a symbol of our culture just because some liberals want to pervert their meaning?

The south lost their rebellion over slavery and you should be proud of the American flag that crushed the rebellion not the flag that symbolizes it. Unless of course you are proud of what the confederate flag was created for, symbolizes.