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Schiff Targets Political Rival, Journalist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSam, at this point, after watching people argue for three years now and not change their minds one iota on either side, I just don't take any of it seriously any more. Us arguing on tweb isn't going to change anyone's minds or anything in the actual world. It is just bloviating from both sides.
And I think JimL enjoys pushing our buttons as much as we do his. If I met you or JimL in real life I would be happy to share a pizza and a beer with you and be your friend.
It's a demeaning exercise, and not just for those who put themselves into that exercise. It's corrosive and the damage spreads wide.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostEven if this is true -- and I agree much of it is and for far longer than three years -- that is not a license for people to say things that are not true, engage in narratives they know to be false and strictly partisan, or to settle into partisan trench warfare for "fun", deciding to simply not care about the truth of what they're hearing or saying.
It's a demeaning exercise, and not just for those who put themselves into that exercise. It's corrosive and the damage spreads wide.
--Sam
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYet both sides are doing it. Not only on Tweb, but in the media and even in congress. Which is why I don't take anything said here seriously any more.
Arguing "both sides" and throwing it all to the wind does nothing except validate that post-truth environment: an environment that is inhospitable to a healthy society and even to the Christian religion.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View Post"Both sides" are dissimilar in both the frequency and the degree of falsehoods or "post-truth" narratives. This site is a microcosm, of course, but from Congress down to the volk there is -- and has long been -- a clear distinction in how factual information and reasonable inference is used.
Arguing "both sides" and throwing it all to the wind does nothing except validate that post-truth environment: an environment that is inhospitable to a healthy society and even to the Christian religion.
--Sam
Sam, you can take it all very seriously if you like. You will just be frustrating yourself in the long run. Me? I will just not take it seriously and relax and enjoy the show. I will express my serious views at the polls. That's the only place it really counts.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI think we're seeing that breakdown of care and articulation from a whole slew of people, most of whom, simply by the ideological lean of this subforum, exist on the other side. But despite their numbers being greater and their lake of care being more pronounced, we don't see them holding themselves to the same standards they advocate when challenged.
What I'm saying here is that people should have the courage to hold themselves up to the standard they're demanding from others -- to ensure that they're saying true things and, if shown to be saying false things, rethink of retract what they're saying. With all the piling on that JimL has gotten here for poor wording or false statements since my first post, both Rogue and Teallaura have made more numerous and more egregious errors in fact without pushback from the folks going after JimL.
--Sam
Heck, I'm even nicer to YOU!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSam probably thinks of JimL as simple-minded and feels the need to argue for him, to help JimL save face before he embarrasses himself too much. I find it very cute.
I think Jim gets flustered and ahead of himself sometimes - who doesn't - but I've never thought him dumb. And I speak Jim pretty well - it's rare when I can't understand his posts at all. Being fair, he's learned to speak me pretty well, too.
But I think that answering for Jim thing just aggravates my annoyance with Sam - and I'm not sure why I find him so annoying right now. Translate that as it may just be me. Maybe.
Regardless, I don't owe him or anyone a response just because they butt into a discussion."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI'm not arguing for JimL, I am arguing for myself and against statements I know to be false. Simple-mindedness comes not from a humble intellect but from a deficit of candor and courage. I'm embarrassed for a whole lot of people these days but mostly for those who share my belief in Christ but dishonor Him by word and deed.
--Sam
Hmm, I think that's it. I have had a tough time figuring out why I get so annoyed with you now when I used to enjoy arguing with you. Regardless of your intent, it does feel like you are looking for any excuse to argue with me personally.
Anyway I'm not going to answer your posts until I stop being so irritable with you. I don't want to and that's all there is to it."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostYeah, but only when I am talking to Jim. Kinda strikes me as a backhanded personal attack which may be why I find it so danged annoying right now. And no, my statements weren't false. If Jim wants to challenge them he has every right but I don't owe you a response and am not inclined to give you one when you have been out to get me for a while now.
Hmm, I think that's it. I have had a tough time figuring out why I get so annoyed with you now when I used to enjoy arguing with you. Regardless of your intent, it does feel like you are looking for any excuse to argue with me personally.
Anyway I'm not going to answer your posts until I stop being so irritable with you. I don't want to and that's all there is to it.
Any road, you owe me nothing, that's true. But that's not the operative framework. What you owe is to yourself and to the community you find yourself in and what you owe is a consistent and honest standard of behavior: you cannot challenge, demand, or heckle someone else over false or mischaracterized statements if you don't demand the same of yourself. To that end, you've restated numerous errors of fact that have been addressed before but are being repeated now because they are pragmatic for your position.
You owe me nothing but you owe faithful service to the truth, nevertheless.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Again, I think your efforts would be better spent coaching Jim. He is not here for the fellowship, Sam, but just to be a thorn in the side of the Christian posters here. REGARDLESS, I'm trying to be less hostile to him, even though he continues to goad with his moronic "Trumpsters" and "Moscow Mitch" and countless baseless insults and attacks.
Heck, I'm even nicer to YOU!
I do think "fellowship" is a key question here. What fellowship are people trying to have here? What community are they looking to sustain and show? What does that community resemble -- a vision of the Church or a clique? Not directing that critique of you, personally, here but I've said before that folks need to be really aware of how they're using this site and what kind of society they're displaying.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI am sure each side thinks the other side is the one spouting falsehoods and more frequently.
Sam, you can take it all very seriously if you like. You will just be frustrating yourself in the long run. Me? I will just not take it seriously and relax and enjoy the show. I will express my serious views at the polls. That's the only place it really counts.
If the only place "truth" counts is "at the polls" and we're totally free of the challenge of actually determining what is and is not true then, yes, all serious talk ends and the world is given to fools. Whatever happens at that point, it won' be a fertile ground for the Gospel.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI think it's our job, especially if we're pursuing a distinctly Christian message on an unapologetically Christian site, to take it seriously. If not, the next best thing is to not engage at all and avoid flippant talk.
If the only place "truth" counts is "at the polls" and we're totally free of the challenge of actually determining what is and is not true then, yes, all serious talk ends and the world is given to fools. Whatever happens at that point, it won' be a fertile ground for the Gospel.
--Sam
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