Originally posted by seanD
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Take This Impeachment And Shove It...
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I don't want to sidetrack this discussion. My point is that I apply the same standards to the person I ultimately voted for as for the person I ultimately voted against. And when I was assured from voices "on the left" that this was a nothingburger I was totally unconvinced because I know that there is no legitimate justification (not necessarily criminal) for managing her emails the way she did.
Of course. The government has to keep secrets in some cases to prevent greater harm from befalling us. Trump gave a the readout (not a transcript!) from the call so obviously this is not that.
We know Clinton committed a crime, what actual crime, did Trump commit?
Say I was elected president. On day 1 I announce my intent to do nothing but play Minecraft all day and that's what I do. Memos go unread. Briefings ignored. Phone is disconnected from the wall. I refuse to meet with lawmakers or advisors. Did I break a law? Or have I acted in a way so contrary to the expectations of my office that I must be removed for the sake of the republic?
What if I just start announcing every government secret we have on Twitter. No doubt you're aware that the president can declassify anything and everything she wants. Did I break a law? Or have I acted in a way so contrary to the expectations of my office that I must be removed for the sake of the republic?
What if Canada invades and I order the military to stand down and not return fire under any conditions? Did I break a law? Or have I acted in a way so contrary to the expectations of my office that I must be removed for the sake of the republic?
I don't claim that Trump did any of these things. But surely you agree that impeachment and removal is essential in all these cases.
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I wonder what folks think about this? This seems to be a new development, or is Bolton bluffing (emphasis mine)?
Mr. Bolton declined to say on Monday precisely what he would be willing to tell Congress. But former White House officials and people close to Mr. Bolton have indicated that his testimony would likely be damning to Mr. Trump and put additional pressure on moderate Republicans to consider convicting him.
Source
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Originally posted by DivineOb View PostIf I can be frank I think you are extremely trusting of the current government. I doubt very many conservatives on this forum would be similarly dispassionate about significantly lesser allegations about Obama's administration. I bet if I search for "Clinton emails" I would find a rabid mob ready to tear her limb from limb. And I am not unsympathetic to those who felt that way for legitimate reasons (I was one of them) for reasons I will lay out below.I do not feel they had that right. There's a reason we recognize human rights which transcend borders, governments, and constitutions.This is a category error. I am private citizen who doesn't report to The People. I don't have any special public trust or public authority. I can't act in a significant way against The People due to blackmail or conflicts of interest. I've felt this way my whole life (see my above comment re: Clinton). I felt she violated the public trust by acting in a way to hide communications from FOIA and did so in a reckless manner. Not trying to shift the discussion but I assure you I try to be consistent in this expectation.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHe didn't ask if you would listen, Lilpix, he asked if want to hear. Your evasion makes obvious the fact that you would rather not hear. There are none so deaf.......What a ridiculous analogy! One has to wonder why you're trying so hard to defend the President for his obstructing an inquiry into his actions. Well, we're not really wondering why, we know why, and so do you. The presidents obstruction is not protected by the Constitution, it's a violation of the Constitution. An alleged murderer doesn't have the power to determine what the admissable evidence will be or will not be. He doesn't have the power to order witnesses not to testify or to block direct evidence from being seen. The President is using his power to violate the Constitution, not to adhere to it.The White House is not the Presidents House, it's the peoples house and it is the peoples prerogative to have it searched, if you will, not the guests.
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If I can be frank I think you are extremely trusting of the current government. I doubt very many conservatives on this forum would be similarly dispassionate about significantly lesser allegations about Obama's administration. I bet if I search for "Clinton emails" I would find a rabid mob ready to tear her limb from limb. And I am not unsympathetic to those who felt that way for legitimate reasons (I was one of them) for reasons I will lay out below.
I do not feel they had that right. There's a reason we recognize human rights which transcend borders, governments, and constitutions.
This is a category error. I am private citizen who doesn't report to The People. I don't have any special public trust or public authority. I can't act in a significant way against The People due to blackmail or conflicts of interest. I've felt this way my whole life (see my above comment re: Clinton). I felt she violated the public trust by acting in a way to hide communications from FOIA and did so in a reckless manner. Not trying to shift the discussion but I assure you I try to be consistent in this expectation.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYes it does and you know it. It is very dishonest for you to say otherwise and hide behind a claim that they both have subpoena powers.
Nobody disputes that both committees have subpoena powers. What is at question is whether Schiff, as he has shown he is prone to do, screwed it up. Nadler, OTOH has at the very least, a veneer of competence and the validity of the subpoenas from his committee has not been drawn into question.
Explain why, using Judge Jackson's ruling or any other legal precedent, subpoenas coming out of HPSCI lack legal authority.
Don't go calling people dishonest if you're just going to follow it up with griping and handwaving.
--Sam
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostWould I listen? Sure, but as I said, its important that the rule of law is upheld first and foremost. If the Democrats are serious, they need to take it to the courts and let the courts decide.
But did Nazis have a right to that information? What youre setting up here is opposite of why we have constitutional protections to begin with.
Why should you object to police searching your house? Do you have anything to hide?
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Originally posted by seer View PostAre you a US citizen?
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Originally posted by DivineOb View PostSo do I have it right that you *aren't* curious?No, and I think those who denied them that information did so because they believed themselves to be morally superior over the Nazis. *next*
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYes it does and you know it. It is very dishonest for you to say otherwise and hide behind a claim that they both have subpoena powers.
Nobody disputes that both committees have subpoena powers. What is at question is whether Schiff, as he has shown he is prone to do, screwed it up. Nadler, OTOH has at the very least, a veneer of competence and the validity of the subpoenas from his committee has not been drawn into question.
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