The irony of the New York Times� 1619 Project...

[Sam]

1) I don't appreciate the accusation of lying and I'd like it retracted

2) Anecdotal evidence remains inferior to empirical studies. That's why they do the studies.

--Sam

I also work at a law firm and can attest to what OBP said.

You just googled till you found something that agreed with you.

[oxmixmudd]

White people don't have an equal chance at birth Ox. Nobody does. There are white people who are born in just as bad poverty as any black person is. And there are black people born with just as much advantage as the richest white person.

This "everyone has to be equal" and pretending only black people are poor is a fantasy.

Im not saying everyONE is equal, nor am I pretending ONLY black people are poor.

I'm speaking statistically Sparko - as a population. All individuals are different. But as a population assuming we are all members homo sapians, in populations as large as the american caucasian and african american (millions), we should see equivalent distributions of success and wealth within the statistical margins of error, which for such large data sets are small.

We dont. That means the environments are different and in the case of african americans detrimental.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

I will repeat, I have never said the bile you quoted me saying. That libelous, degrading statement you made up is based on twisting my words and my comment unrecognizably.

My reply is based on Ben Carson - THE MAN. Not Ben Carson's race. No-one, black, white, hispanic, whatever achieved what Ben Carson achieved without being special. Period. And the fact he achieved it and he is black does not tell as anything useful about the relative fairness of our society in terms of white/black racism or oppression.

For example - In 1876, Edward Alexander Bouchet, a former slave, earned a Doctorate.

Does that mean american society in 1876 was not racist? That all black people in the US in 1876 had equal opportunity to whites?

And that was my point. You can't hold Ben Carson up as an example of anything other than what is possible in the extreme for a PERSON to achieve. Any more than Mozart or Luciano Pavarotti.

To understand the relative fairness of our society, to understand whether or not people have equal opportunity regardless of race, you have to look at statistics like the ratio of poverty, like overall income levels, like crime, like incarceration, like higher degrees and education. These are the statistics that tell us where we are in the fight to actually make real Martin Luther King's dream.


Jim

This isn't 1876, so your analogy is anachronistic. Widespread racism and bigotry hasn't been a problem in America for at least two-generations Everybody in America has an equal chance of achieving success so long as they are willing to take advantage of the opportunities offered them without making excuses or blaming someone else for their failures. Unfortunately, liberal ideology continues to encourage black people to see themselves as less capable and needing help from whites in order to succeed with the goal of keeping them on the plantation so they'll continue voting for whichever Democrat candidate promises them the biggest handout.

Meanwhile, "racist" President Trump has done more for blacks in less than 4-years than Democrats have done for blacks in 4-decades. No hand outs; no denigrating "affirmative action"; no reduced expectations... all he did was fix the economy, encourage job creation, and now black unemployment is at one of its lowest points in US history.

[Mountain Man]

What we as a society owe the black population is an equal chance at birth to what a white person has.

Which white person? You'll have to be specific, because not even all white people are born equally.

[Sparko]

1) I don't appreciate the accusation of lying and I'd like it retracted

2) Anecdotal evidence remains inferior to empirical studies. That's why they do the studies.

--Sam

I never said you were lying.

Just a victim of confirmation bias.

[Sparko]

Im not saying everyONE is equal, nor am I pretending ONLY black people are poor.

I'm speaking statistically Sparko - as a population. All individuals are different. But as a population assuming we are all members homo sapians, in populations as large as the american caucasian and african american (millions), we should see equivalent distributions of success and wealth within the statistical margins of error, which for such large data sets are small.

We dont. That means the environments are different and in the case of african americans detrimental.

Jim

I agree with the bolded. I think one real difference is location/environment. Blacks in inner cities (and whites) are statistically poorer and are more disadvantaged than blacks (and whites) who live in suburban and rural areas. The inner city slums need to be what is dealt with. Until we do, anyone who lives there will be disadvantaged whether black or any other race. They are crime-ridden neighborhoods with horrible living conditions and lousy schools.

[Sam]

I never said you were lying.

Just a victim of confirmation bias.

Really hard to square "This reminds me of something I saw on Twitter" with "You just googled around until you found something that agrees with you".

It's a fairly clear implication that I did not give an honest account and I'd like it retracted.

--Sam

[Sparko]

Really hard to square "This reminds me of something I saw on Twitter" with "You just googled around until you found something that agrees with you".

It's a fairly clear implication that I did not give an honest account and I'd like it retracted.

--Sam

I gave my opinion of what I thought you did. If that is what you think is calling you a liar is we are all in trouble. You were basically calling OPB a liar by that standard, since you are saying what he told you is incorrect. And me too. Gee, we must all be liars. Oh noes.

[Sam]

I agree with the bolded. I think one real difference is location/environment. Blacks in inner cities (and whites) are statistically poorer and are more disadvantaged than blacks (and whites) who live in suburban and rural areas. The inner city slums need to be what is dealt with. Until we do, anyone who lives there will be disadvantaged whether black or any other race. They are crime-ridden neighborhoods with horrible living conditions and lousy schools.

If we're diving into how we got such a stark suburban/urban divide, it's hard to avoid the consequences of explicitly racist policies like redlining and explicitly racist reactions to civil rights gains.

Source: White Flight: Atlanta and the Making of Modern Conservatism. Kevin M Kruse. 2007.

During the civil rights era, Atlanta thought of itself as "The City Too Busy to Hate," a rare place in the South where the races lived and thrived together. Over the course of the 1960s and 1970s, however, so many whites fled the city for the suburbs that Atlanta earned a new nickname: "The City Too Busy Moving to Hate."

In this reappraisal of racial politics in modern America, Kevin Kruse explains the causes and consequences of "white flight" in Atlanta and elsewhere. Seeking to understand segregationists on their own terms, White Flight moves past simple stereotypes to explore the meaning of white resistance. In the end, Kruse finds that segregationist resistance, which failed to stop the civil rights movement, nevertheless managed to preserve the world of segregation and even perfect it in subtler and stronger forms.


Challenging the conventional wisdom that white flight meant nothing more than a literal movement of whites to the suburbs, this book argues that it represented a more important transformation in the political ideology of those involved. In a provocative revision of postwar American history, Kruse demonstrates that traditional elements of modern conservatism, such as hostility to the federal government and faith in free enterprise, underwent important transformations during the postwar struggle over segregation. Likewise, white resistance gave birth to several new conservative causes, like the tax revolt, tuition vouchers, and privatization of public services. Tracing the journey of southern conservatives from white supremacy to white suburbia, Kruse locates the origins of modern American politics.

© Copyright Original Source

[Sam]

You are saying that I lied regarding what I said I did. That's not saying I'm "incorrect", it's saying that I'm not telling the truth. I understand that the moderation around here might be getting a little lax but I don't appreciate someone making an unsubstantiated accusation that I'm lying about my own actions.

--Sam

I gave my opinion of what I thought you did. If that is what you think is calling you a liar is we are all in trouble. You were basically calling OPB a liar by that standard, since you are saying what he told you is incorrect. And me too. Gee, we must all be liars. Oh noes.

[Sparko]

If we're diving into how we got such a stark suburban/urban divide, it's hard to avoid the consequences of explicitly racist policies like redlining and explicitly racist reactions to civil rights gains.

Source: White Flight: Atlanta and the Making of Modern Conservatism. Kevin M Kruse. 2007.

During the civil rights era, Atlanta thought of itself as "The City Too Busy to Hate," a rare place in the South where the races lived and thrived together. Over the course of the 1960s and 1970s, however, so many whites fled the city for the suburbs that Atlanta earned a new nickname: "The City Too Busy Moving to Hate."

In this reappraisal of racial politics in modern America, Kevin Kruse explains the causes and consequences of "white flight" in Atlanta and elsewhere. Seeking to understand segregationists on their own terms, White Flight moves past simple stereotypes to explore the meaning of white resistance. In the end, Kruse finds that segregationist resistance, which failed to stop the civil rights movement, nevertheless managed to preserve the world of segregation and even perfect it in subtler and stronger forms.


Challenging the conventional wisdom that white flight meant nothing more than a literal movement of whites to the suburbs, this book argues that it represented a more important transformation in the political ideology of those involved. In a provocative revision of postwar American history, Kruse demonstrates that traditional elements of modern conservatism, such as hostility to the federal government and faith in free enterprise, underwent important transformations during the postwar struggle over segregation. Likewise, white resistance gave birth to several new conservative causes, like the tax revolt, tuition vouchers, and privatization of public services. Tracing the journey of southern conservatives from white supremacy to white suburbia, Kruse locates the origins of modern American politics.

© Copyright Original Source

Part of the problem is that the liberals enact policies to KEEP the blacks in slums. They designate areas section 8 housing and then using the welfare system under the guise of "helping poor families" , pile all of the poor blacks into that area. The people who live there have no jobs, and no money. They have nothing to really do all day, so they tend to get into trouble, joining gangs, stealing, etc, which makes the area rougher and harder for anyone who wants to work their way out. It's a viscous cycle.

[Sparko]

You are saying that I lied regarding what I said I did. That's not saying I'm "incorrect", it's saying that I'm not telling the truth. I understand that the moderation around here might be getting a little lax but I don't appreciate someone making an unsubstantiated accusation that I'm lying about my own actions.

--Sam

We have a rule against calling someone a liar. as in, "Sam, you are lying" or "Sam you are a liar" - I did no such thing. If you feel I was insinuating you were lying by some voodoo magical indirect method, well that's on you and is not against the rules. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. But I am not apologizing for something I didn't do.

If your skin is that thin, maybe you shouldn't be posting in civics.

Lying
We consider a lie to be a poster knowingly and willfully making a statement they know to be untrue. If you call someone a liar you need to substantiate it. In order to substantiate an accusation of lying, it must be shown that the poster in question is stating something they know to be untrue. Opinions or facts that are in dispute should never be referred to as lies. Someone's faith or beliefs should also never be referred to as lying. We will not allow repeated accusations of lying. We will moderate any tossing out the term "liar" - and similar charges - when it is used in place of a response or as a mere insult to denigrate the other person, as judged by the moderators. We will also not allow repeated posts calling someone a liar, accusing them of lying, or claiming their post is a lie. If you wish to challenge the truth of someone's statement, then do so ONLY ONCE in the thread, and substantiate your claim IN THE SAME POST. Further discussion of the matter will only be allowed in the Padded Room.

[oxmixmudd]

Which white person? You'll have to be specific, because not even all white people are born equally.

I answered that to Sparko.

Basic question: how many here need a refresher course on the differences between statistical statements about populations and absolute claims about individual members of a population?

The questions asked and accusations levied would point to a somewhat low kevel confusion of the two.


Jim

[Sam]

Part of the problem is that the liberals enact policies to KEEP the blacks in slums. They designate areas section 8 housing and then using the welfare system under the guise of "helping poor families" , pile all of the poor blacks into that area. The people who live there have no jobs, and no money. They have nothing to really do all day, so they tend to get into trouble, joining gangs, stealing, etc, which makes the area rougher and harder for anyone who wants to work their way out. It's a viscous cycle.

Liberals end up being plenty full of NIMBY folk, true. So a better redress than public housing might be, say, federally-guaranteed home ownership loans and strict regulations on housing so that things like devaluing majority-black neighborhood homeowners' property and decreasing home values in a neighborhood after several black families move in stop happening.

--Sam

[oxmixmudd]

I agree with the bolded. I think one real difference is location/environment. Blacks in inner cities (and whites) are statistically poorer and are more disadvantaged than blacks (and whites) who live in suburban and rural areas. The inner city slums need to be what is dealt with. Until we do, anyone who lives there will be disadvantaged whether black or any other race. They are crime-ridden neighborhoods with horrible living conditions and lousy schools.

And this is one of the major detrimental legacies of slavery and racism: a much larger percentage of the black population lives in those areas than the white population.

Jim