The irony of the New York Times� 1619 Project...

[oxmixmudd]

We have made things right as a nation. Any black person in America today who puts his mind to it has every chance of succeeding, and this has been true for at least two-generations. Unfortunately, we still have an entire political party telling blacks that they're oppressed and can't succeed without the help of their white betters.

And likening reparations to public education is absurd. One is an ongoing program that continues to benefit all of society (at least in theory) while the other is based on the false and frankly racist premise that I, simply by being born white, am somehow indirectly responsible for something that happened in the past that had nothing at all to do with me.

No Mm, that simply is not true. I already gave you the simple, bottom line test of the validity of that sort of thinking. If there is no fundamental difference in the capabilities of white people and black people at birth, then the distribution of wealth, power, knowledge, and crime should be even between the two races. IT IS NOT. Since it is not, that means the average environment a black person grows up in is less conducive to success and prosperity and more likely to lead to criminal activity or criminal prosecution.

It means as a society, black people are still oppressed.

It means we have not yet removed the legacy of slavery.

It means racism still lives in our culture, though the primary form of that racism may be less obvious than KKK membership by white people

Jim

[Mountain Man]

...that means the average environment a black person grows up in is less conducive to success and prosperity and more likely to lead to criminal activity or criminal prosecution.

And you really think another "half-hearted" government program that implicitly tells blacks that their cultural failures are not their fault, and that they can only succeed with a helping hand from their white masters is suddenly going to make a difference? We've been paying reparations for decades in the form of welfare, government housing, affirmative action, etc., and to hear people like you tell it, blacks are just as oppressed as ever, so what's the point of giving them yet another handout? The problem is obviously not a lack of resources and opportunity, so what's the real reason that some blacks succeed, and some don't? If we can figure that out, then we might be on the way to a solution.

[seer]

No Mm, that simply is not true. I already gave you the simple, bottom line test of the validity of that sort of thinking. If there is no fundamental difference in the capabilities of white people and black people at birth, then the distribution of wealth, power, knowledge, and crime should be even between the two races. IT IS NOT. Since it is not, that means the average environment a black person grows up in is less conducive to success and prosperity and more likely to lead to criminal activity or criminal prosecution.

It means as a society, black people are still oppressed.

It means we have not yet removed the legacy of slavery.

It means racism still lives in our culture, though the primary form of that racism may be less obvious than KKK membership by white people

Jim

What causes 70% of black men in the inner cities to abandon their children, when back in the day, when overt racism was much worse, only 20% did?

[oxmixmudd]

What causes 70% of black men in the inner cities to abandon their children, when back in the day, when overt racism was much worse, only 20% did?

Interesting question. A possible answer would be that changing cultural morays had a greater negative effect on those already marginalized through racism and poverty.

But your question has very, very dark and racist implications. Go back to my fundamental test question. If blacks and whites are fundamentally equal at birth, then these differences come from cultural and environmental differences, differences that are not hard to show find their primary source in racism and slavery over centuries. And it is the moral responsibility of those not 'enslaved' by those environmental differences to try to 'set free' those that are.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

And it is the moral responsibility of those not 'enslaved' by those environmental differences to try to 'set free' those that are.

Wow, talk about "dark racist implications". Do you really have such a low opinion of blacks that you think they won't succeed unless white people take care of them?

[oxmixmudd]

Wow, talk about "dark racist implications". Do you really have such a low opinion of blacks that you think they won't succeed unless white people take care of them?

That is a cop out. No, if all things were equal they would succeed just fine.

And ill tell you this smarty pants. In all likelyhood if the situation were reversed in terms of environment, then so would the statistics be. It is not that black people need white peopie, it is that any oppressed minority will succeed if those in power to take the necessary steps to remove the elements that keep them oppressed. One of those elements could even be as counterintuitive as an infused culture of dependence. But there are many elements to the current problem.

But if an oppressed minority can on their own equalize without help from their oppressors, that would be evidence they were ( in that moment at least ) MORE CAPABLE than their oppressors.


Jim

[seer]

Interesting question. A possible answer would be that changing cultural morays had a greater negative effect on those already marginalized through racism and poverty.

But your question has very, very dark and racist implications. Go back to my fundamental test question. If blacks and whites are fundamentally equal at birth, then these differences come from cultural and environmental differences, differences that are not hard to show find their primary source in racism and slavery over centuries. And it is the moral responsibility of those not 'enslaved' by those environmental differences to try to 'set free' those that are.

Jim

I'm sorry Jim, I was single parent making minimum wage with full custody of my son with zero help from my estranged wife. There is nothing on earth that would have caused me abandon that boy. I don't know what is happening with black men, but suggesting that their bad choices play no real role in this is too a form of racism.

[Mountain Man]

...if all things were equal they would succeed just fine.

And many blacks do succeed just fine. The question, again, is why do some succeed while others don't?

[Sam]

I'm sorry Jim, I was single parent making minimum wage with full custody of my son with zero help from my estranged wife. There is nothing on earth that would have caused me abandon that boy. I don't know what is happening with black men, but suggesting that their bad choices play no real role in this is too a form of racism.

Y'all are talking about something that's half-myth, half-policy SNAFU.

[rogue06]

Wow, talk about "dark racist implications". Do you really have such a low opinion of blacks that you think they won't succeed unless white people take care of them?

The soft racism of low expectations.

[oxmixmudd]

I'm sorry Jim, I was single parent making minimum wage with full custody of my son with zero help from my estranged wife. There is nothing on earth that would have caused me abandon that boy. I don't know what is happening with black men, but suggesting that their bad choices play no real role in this is too a form of racism.

We are talking statistics and populations, not individuals. And as such, there may well be factors other than personal commitment in play. And tyere may well be cultural elements with derive from a history of racism and oppression that are in play as well.

Bottom line, if we are equal, it is enviromentsl issues driving the disparity.

Or are you trying to imply black people, black men, have a less powerful parenting instinct?

Jim

[Mountain Man]

We are talking about what the statistics show. And then there is the hard racism of demanding overwhelming odds be overcome before equality is granted and calling anything less 'low expectations'.

Jim

I personally know many blacks who have overcome the supposedly "overwhelming odds" you claim they're up against and are successful family men with good careers. Why can they do it, but other blacks can't?

[oxmixmudd]

The soft racism of low expectations.

We are talking about what the statistics show. And comments like this and MM strike me as way to close to the hard racism of demanding overwhelming odds be overcome before equality is granted and calling anything less 'low expectations'.

Jim

[seer]

We are talking statistics and populations, not individuals. And as such, there may well be factors other than personal commitment in play. And tyere may well be cultural elements with derive from a history of racism and oppression that are in play as well.

Bottom line, if we are equal, it is enviromentsl issues driving the disparity.

Or are you trying to imply black people, black men, have a less powerful parenting instinct?

Jim

So generally black men can't be moral in the face of adversity? And why do blacks from Africa or the Islands do so much better in this country - if memory serves their unemployment rate tracks that of whites.

[Sam]

The soft racism of low expectations.