Mass Shooting El Paso...

[demi-conservative]

It's completely impractical, though - what good is a measure that can't be implemented?

This is interesting to demi. Usually moderates like Adrift go 'don't be all or nothing, be reasonable, look for compromise!!!'

Here is different, special case.

[Adrift]

You brought it up.

I did not. Sparko brought it up. I was replying to him.

Which wouldn't be an issue for an average citizen.

Exactly. Which is why this idea of arming citizens in order to keep homicides down is a little silly.

[rogue06]

I think it's a very silly point to compare Mutually Assured Destruction on a local level. We're not talking nuclear powered military's here, we're talking armed civilians.

The quote from the author Robert A. Heinlein in his Beyond This Horizon springs to mind: "An armed society is a polite society."

While I'm a bit skeptical of the More guns, Less crime philosophy there is data that backs it up (and likely data that contradicts it as well).

Most homicides are not committed by your average crook, they're committed in gang warfare where the other side is often expected to be armed.

Actually, most gang bangers don't walk around packing heat. They are all too aware that they are liable to encounter the police at any time (a large percentage of them are on probation or parole and have limited rights against searches), so many tend to only carry guns when they think there is a need. So drive-bys and other "hits" are often timed when they think that their target will likely be incapable of offering armed resistance.

[Sparko]

I was stationed on Ramstein Airbase, which I believe is the second largest after Fort Hood. Trust me when I say that there are plenty of armed security forces just about everywhere on that base, and a couple armories within close proximity. And you're right, an armed gunman could walk into a PX or commissary and shoot a dozen people before the MPs get there. That's my point. Even in a heavily armed place like a military base you can kill many people before anyone can respond. Wackjobs are looking for places where there's a lot of people. A military base is the last place you'd go if you're also concerned about armed resistance, so that's not really what they're concerned about.

Ramstein is basically the gateway base to all of our theatres of war - of course it is very secure.

But I grew up on army bases and I didn't see many guns around, other than a few MPs here and there. The soldiers didn't carry, except on designated ranges. The civilians working there didn't carry. There were no guns in the Barracks. There weren't armories on every corner like you seem to be suggesting.

And the shooter on Ft Hood knew this and took that into consideration when he went on his spree. He didn't attack the gatehouse or the MP stations or the gun ranges.

[rogue06]

I guarantee you that there were plenty of armed people on the base in relatively close proximity, and that others could have been armed fairly quickly.




I think it's worth the risk.



Yes, I know that's your view, and I also understand that it's a reason gun proponents balk. I think an all or nothing approach is the only practical measure though.

Fort Hood is the exception that proves the rule. IIRC, someone recently posted stats that show that well over 90% of mass shootings take place in gun free zones.

[Adrift]

No, there weren't. Would be now, probably - but their regulations were pretty strict back then. That was one of the findings after the massacre - and the fact that no one killed the shooter argues against this.

I was Security Forces on a military base 4 years before the the Ft. Hood shooting. I feel like I know a little bit about how well armed base personnel are, and how quickly one can get to an armory.

Er, that's rather nasty.

Perhaps, but it's better than the alternative where we currently reign supreme as gun homicide capital of the 1st world.

It's completely impractical, though - what good is a measure that can't be implemented?

I obviously don't believe it to be impractical, or otherwise I'd be against it. I think it could be implemented if our non-criminal element wasn't so devoted to gun culture.

[demi-conservative]

Er, that's rather nasty.

demi supposes his or family of his not rural. Not that nasty, is like people in safe north states asking 'why do we need south wall??? why people care so much???'

Not nasty, is just no real understanding, also no empathy - despite posture of his.

[Adrift]

The quote from the author Robert A. Heinlein in his Beyond This Horizon springs to mind: "An armed society is a polite society."

If I'm remembering correctly, Robert Heinlein was known for his militarism, which was cynically poked at by Paul Verhoeven in his adaptation of Starship Troopers.

[demi-conservative]

If I'm remembering correctly, Robert Heinlein was known for his militarism, which was cynically poked at by Paul Verhoeven in his adaptation of Starship Troopers.

Maybe to address point, instead of weak sort-of ad hominem dismissal? Sad.

[Adrift]

Ramstein is basically the gateway base to all of our theatres of war - of course it is very secure.

Ramstein wasn't the only base I served on (though it was probably the largest). All of the bases I served on had armed SFs/MPs, regular weapons training among the rest of the military personnel and quick access to armories. I don't know what to tell you about your experience, but I know my experience was vastly different.

[rogue06]

Daddy taught me a few things about guns: They are always real. They always work. And they are always, ALWAYS loaded.

That.

I was taught the same thing. Not that they MIGHT be loaded, but that they ARE loaded.

[Adrift]

Fort Hood is the exception that proves the rule. IIRC, someone recently posted stats that show that well over 90% of mass shootings take place in gun free zones.

Correlation does not equal causation. "Gun free zones" typically happen to be places full of people, which is what the crazed gunman is really after.

[One Bad Pig]

If I'm remembering correctly, Robert Heinlein was known for his militarism, which was cynically poked at by Paul Verhoeven in his adaptation of Starship Troopers.

The movie version was awful.

[Sparko]

Ramstein wasn't the only base I served on (though it was probably the largest). All of the bases I served on had armed SFs/MPs, regular weapons training among the rest of the military personnel and quick access to armories. I don't know what to tell you about your experience, but I know my experience was vastly different.

I never said they didn't have armed MPs and I did mention weapons training, But MPs are no more prevalent than Police on the outside. They are not everywhere.

Also I question your "quick access to armories" - Armories are pretty secure places. You have to have reasons and forms to get weapons out of an Armory. And they aren't just located at every corner.

[Adrift]

demi supposes his or family of his not rural. Not that nasty, is like people in safe north states asking 'why do we need south wall??? why people care so much???'

Not nasty, is just no real understanding, also no empathy - despite posture of his.

Wrong on both counts. I live in a small city in the Midwest of approx. 30,000 people, but my brother (who is Border Patrol) and his family live in the sticks where the closest town about 4 miles away only has approx. 1500 people.

And stop with the broken English.