Mass Shooting El Paso...

[Teallaura]

In the meantime, how do we do something about the root of the problem? Or is that a job for the Holy Spirit?

We start identifying the problems that are contributing and work at either correcting or mitigating them. The warehouse schooling system, using shooter video games as baby sitters, over use of social media, too early allowing social media, using technology to raise our kids, underplaying the evils of bullying, overplaying the evils of bullying, not caring about the victim, not caring about the bully, and the list goes on from here. We do something.

But the main thing we as Christians do it point to Christ - the only real solutions will come through Him.

[Christianbookworm]

And how, exactly, is this a rational reason to allow people to own fully automatic weapons? This broad and rather silly brush would, if we accept it, argue against any and all gun control - so you have just put forth an argument for letting the known mentally unstable and violent felons buy guns with no restrictions whatsoever.

Seriously, 90% of the folks here actually ARE pro-gun control - the argument should be on the specifics of how to do that fairly. But no, we argue about stupid crap like whether or not guns are force multipliers.

Yeah, no one needs guns that can kill dozens in seconds. And the laws already on the books do need to be enforced. And everyone should learn gun safety.

[KingsGambit]

We start identifying the problems that are contributing and work at either correcting or mitigating them. The warehouse schooling system, using shooter video games as baby sitters, over use of social media, too early allowing social media, using technology to raise our kids, underplaying the evils of bullying, overplaying the evils of bullying, not caring about the victim, not caring about the bully, and the list goes on from here. We do something.

But the main thing we as Christians do it point to Christ - the only real solutions will come through Him.

Out of curiosity, how would you respond to the meme that argues that the twin tack of blaming video games and a lack of Christ looks bad in light of Japan, which is 1% Christian, plays more video games than the US, and has virtually no gun violence?

[Teallaura]

Weren't you just complaining of straw man arguments?

Follow the logic - if the simple fact that there are other ways to kill people mitigates the need to prevent crazies from having guns, it also mitigates crazies from having automatic weapons. If we accept the premise, then all gun control measures are wrong - including the ones most of us agree aren't bad laws.

The straw man is the 'but if the crazy is determined enough' argument.

[rogue06]

Yeah, no one needs guns that can kill dozens in seconds. And the laws already on the books do need to be enforced. And everyone should learn gun safety.

That.

If the laws already in place aren't being enforced then what good is passing new laws if they aren't going to be enforced either?

[Teallaura]

Out of curiosity, how would you respond to the meme that argues that the twin tack of blaming video games and a lack of Christ looks bad in light of Japan, which is 1% Christian, plays more video games than the US, and has virtually no gun violence?

Japan is a very different case - it's still largely an agonistic and incredibly homogeneous culture. Their level of gun control is unworkable and unconstitutional in the US. There's little surprise that they have less gun violence - it's really hard to commit gun violence without a gun. So it's a cute meme and a complete non sequitur.

[rogue06]

Follow the logic - if the simple fact that there are other ways to kill people mitigates the need to prevent crazies from having guns, it also mitigates crazies from having automatic weapons. If we accept the premise, then all gun control measures are wrong - including the ones most of us agree aren't bad laws.

The straw man is the 'but if the crazy is determined enough' argument.

No, no, no.

You specifically stated

And how, exactly, is this a rational reason to allow people to own fully automatic weapons?

Fully automatic weapons are pretty much illegal to own. Claiming otherwise is the straw man here.

[KingsGambit]

One strawman argument I would like to see dispensed of is "if guns kill people, spoons make me fat". I'm going to pick on my cousin because she was promoting it on Facebook today. One can eat without a spoon; one cannot shoot without a gun. (Yes, there are other ways to kill, but as Teal reminded us, guns are a force multiplier.)

[rogue06]

One strawman argument I would like to see dispensed of is "if guns kill people, spoons make me fat". I'm going to pick on my cousin because she was promoting it on Facebook today. One can eat without a spoon; one cannot shoot without a gun. (Yes, there are other ways to kill, but as Teal reminded us, guns are a force multiplier.)

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I think the point is that it is wrong to place the blame on an inanimate object rather than the person using it. Sort of like blaming a pen for spelling mistakes.

[Teallaura]

That.

If the laws already in place aren't being enforced then what good is passing new laws if they aren't going to be enforced either?

And this would be the other one. Yeah, I've heard the numbers - but they work out to about 1.5 per jurisdiction (the US has over 20,000 governments). So it's not a good argument unless you show that the law in question was actually not enforced in that jurisdiction.

The laws I think we need to work on are the ones that allow the Federal government to prevent state laws from being subverted via interstate commerce. This, I fully grant, is NOT easy and would have to be very carefully crafted to not end up with a bigger elephant in the room. But it's still not okay that criminals in New York simply drive south to purchase weapons in states with less stringent gun control measures and then take them back to New York. New York shouldn't override Alabama's laws; we shouldn't override theirs.

[Teallaura]

No, no, no.

You specifically stated

And how, exactly, is this a rational reason to allow people to own fully automatic weapons?

Fully automatic weapons are pretty much illegal to own. Claiming otherwise is the straw man here.

I'm aware they are presently illegal - but the logic of her claim is disputes ALL gun control - including existing laws that most people think are reasonable (excepting Jed, who actually took the no gun control whatsoever position). If we follow that logic, we should overturn existing laws as well as not establishing new ones.

Not. A. Straw. Man.

[Teallaura]

As an aside, London, which has a murder rate higher than New York City's, has now enacted Knife Control (the weapon of choice) to try to stem the homicides.

Yes, I'd heard.


That Europe is going insane doesn't undermine my argument.

[rogue06]

And this would be the other one. Yeah, I've heard the numbers - but they work out to about 1.5 per jurisdiction (the US has over 20,000 governments). So it's not a good argument unless you show that the law in question was actually not enforced in that jurisdiction.

The laws I think we need to work on are the ones that allow the Federal government to prevent state laws from being subverted via interstate commerce. This, I fully grant, is NOT easy and would have to be very carefully crafted to not end up with a bigger elephant in the room. But it's still not okay that criminals in New York simply drive south to purchase weapons in states with less stringent gun control measures and then take them back to New York. New York shouldn't override Alabama's laws; we shouldn't override theirs.

[Teallaura]

I'm much more concerned with enforcing actual gun control laws than documentation errors. Honestly, what idiot made that illegal anyway? I could see it if you were showing a significant attempt to commit fraud - but a law that can be broken by checking a box mistakenly is a dumb law. Rewrite it - and move on.

[rogue06]

I'm much more concerned with enforcing actual gun control laws than documentation errors. Honestly, what idiot made that illegal anyway? I could see it if you were showing a significant attempt to commit fraud - but a law that can be broken by checking a box mistakenly is a dumb law. Rewrite it - and move on.

Many gun control laws are dumb. The aforementioned Assault Weapons Ban is an excellent example since it was, as I noted, based upon the cosmetic appearance of the firearm rather than its functionality. And the violations of it and the Brady Law were more than just documentation errors. As noted "of the 23,000 cases that had been referred for prosecution by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives only arrested 56 people." 56 out of 23,000 referred for prosecution. What's that, something like 0.002%? And that's just the number of arrests. Wanna bet only a fraction of those were prosecuted?