Is The Pope A Commie?

[TimelessTheist]

I wouldn't say the Pope goes so far to the left that you can consider him a commie. However he is criticizing certain aspects of capitalism.

[Zymologist]

I am fairly surprised at how many Christians argue that governments are inherently illegitimate and that taxation is inherently theft. I do not personally believe either position is very compatible with Christianity given the biblical support for the legitimacy of both, which is of course not to accuse those holding such positions of anything more than cognitive dissonance.

The issue would appear to be, then, whether there actually is any biblical support for the legitimacy of taxation. I've given the issue some thought, and I don't think it's quite as open-and-shut as most Christians assume it to be.

[Spartacus]

Here's the part where College Boy raises his hand and mentions that he's taken several courses on Catholic Social Teaching.

With respect to Marxism, you need look no further than Rerum Novarum itself to see that the Church rejected both industrial capitalism and socialism. Those interested in further reading can consult the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (i.e. the modern form of the Inquisition) and its document on liberation theology, in which then-Cdl. Ratzinger drew some very clear lines about exactly how Marxist a Catholic can get.

Quadragesimo Anno paragraphs 44-45 are particularly interesting in that Pope Pius is responding to the claim, made by some, that Leo XIII had in Rerum Novarum defended a Lockean notion of private property. Just something interesting I thought I'd point out.

With respect to Pope Francis, I'd point y'all in this direction: http://ethikapolitika.org/2013/12/16...arkets-ethics/

If Francis is a socialist, so is Benedict, and so was Jesus. In other words, if "socialist" is the only word you know for these ideas, you need a bigger moral vocabulary.

[Epoetker]

[Manw� S�limo]

The issue would appear to be, then, whether there actually is any biblical support for the legitimacy of taxation. I've given the issue some thought, and I don't think it's quite as open-and-shut as most Christians assume it to be.

I'm coming to this discussion blind, so please forgive me if I'm being too simplistic; but if human governments are, in theory, ordained by God then it must follow that they collect tax. They can't operate without revenue - it's just not possible.

I think it only gets messy when an individual decides they don't want the protection and benefits of a certain or any society - they can't move anywhere because basically everywhere but Antarctica has been claimed by a government and failure to follow they're laws leads to unpleasantness.

[Paprika]

If Francis is a socialist, so is Benedict, and so was Jesus. In other words, if "socialist" is the only word you know for these ideas, you need a bigger moral vocabulary.

This. Amen.

[Paprika]

It is theft. (because it is taking that which is someone else's without their consent) In any other context, it is an act that everyone recognizes as theft. Theft by majority vote is theft. Theft by some guy who is the strongest is theft.

If you start with a hypothetical group of people stranded on an island, say, without a government and without the idea of a human government, but understanding morality of justice (don't steal, don't kill, etc.), they would recognize that a powerful guy suddenly going around and forcing everyone to give him money (or goods) is theft/unjust. Likewise a gang (even majority) banding together and forcing everyone else to give them money is theft. The only reason for them to ever come to the conclusion that it's acceptable to appoint a head thief or organize a thieving organization (they'll call it a "government") is if they think the cause is so necessary that it becomes a necessary evil. The most likely original justification for this is something like: that hostile forces are coming to destroy them, and without this mass theft (which they decide to call "tax") they won't be able to amass the means of defense and they will all perish or have everything stolen from them by the hostiles. (Whether they are correct in the assessment of its necessity may be a matter of debate.)

Calling someone or something a "government" or calling theft "tax" doesn't magically turn evil into not-evil. And nobody would consider thinking that it's morally justified unless they thought it was necessary to stop some greater evil, or some such argument that it is a necessary evil.

I find your stance extremely bizarre.

It's depends entirely on the premise that we own absolutely what we have. But that is not so; we have responsibilities and duties beyond our individual selves, including society at large, and paying taxes is one of them.

More fundamentally, from a Christian perspective, we don't have absolute ownership even of ourselves. All was made by God and belongs ultimately to God. We are stewards of what He gives us, and He wants us to pay taxes.

[Spartacus]

Godwin's law. You lose.

More seriously, popular revolutions against authoritarian oppression and social reform movements in many parts of the world were led or informed by Marxism. Catholic social teaching was dealing with Marxism before the bloodshed of the Russian and Spanish revolutions, back before marxism had the political means to start enforcing the side of Marxist ideology which Benedict criticized in the CDF document.

If nothing else, the fact that anyone who speaks up for the poor is immediately labeled a Marxist means that the term is no longer as pejorative as you would like it to be. When everyone from Dorothy Day to Pope Francis has been accused of Marxism by the reactionary right, the term kind of loses its force.

[Zymologist]

I'm coming to this discussion blind, so please forgive me if I'm being too simplistic; but if human governments are, in theory, ordained by God then it must follow that they collect tax. They can't operate without revenue - it's just not possible.

I think it only gets messy when an individual decides they don't want the protection and benefits of a certain or any society - they can't move anywhere because basically everywhere but Antarctica has been claimed by a government and failure to follow they're laws leads to unpleasantness.

Ug...I don't think I should have posted anything. The opinion that I have on this subject is in the extreme minority, and I don't think anybody will be really willing to entertain it. It would probably just be easier to forget I said anything.

[Darth Xena]

Modern Catholic social teaching began to be codified in 1891 with Rerum Novarum.
Marx died in 1883.

They adopted certain ideas from Marx, moreso in Quadragesimo Anno 1931, such as his understanding of "exploitation" and inequality, and class conflict, while rejecting other Marxist ideas. Popes have often advocated state wealth redistribution, and positive universal "rights" (i.e., a right to have others produce and provide you with something). They have advocated nonsense ideas like a "just wage" or "equivalent value". They have often proclaimed things based on terrible understandings of economics.

Easy when you are a fabulously rich entity.

[Paprika]

Ug...I don't think I should have posted anything. The opinion that I have on this subject is in the extreme minority, and I don't think anybody will be really willing to entertain it. It would probably just be easier to forget I said anything.

I'm sure if you present a position rationally it would be taken seriously.

[Darth Xena]

You haven't met some of the members here apparently

[Paprika]

You haven't met some of the members here apparently

True. Let's say instead that I would take it seriously as something to refute.

[Darth Xena]

Gotcha. I was just reading firstfloor, Psychic Missle, and square peg when I read your prior statement and LOLd since no amount of rational posts will engage them on some subjects.

[Zymologist]

I'm sure if you present a position rationally it would be taken seriously.

In that case, just think of it as an academic question that I don't really want to pursue right now. I say academic, because it really has no impact on how I live my life. I pay my taxes, and if the IRS were to come after me, they would be bored to tears.