Originally posted by Sparko
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
Supreme Court: The Wall Can Go Foward...
Collapse
X
-
-
Originally posted by Zara View PostNot IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Since you're probably going flip back into your assumptions and the need to say the word caravan - This is about genuine asylum seekers that, by definition, flee their country of origin for safety from persecution.
They can just as easily wait at home after applying for asylum at a local US Embassy. And if they are in imminent danger, the US Embassy can take them in and give them protection. This would be a very, very few of the thousands that travel in the Caravans. Most of the people traveling in the caravans are not in imminent danger.
These people even use chat rooms and the internet to figure out when the next caravan is leaving.
and when they are sent back, they just wait for the next caravan.
I don't know what you have been reading but your ideas about what is going on or the process is just wrong. Where are you getting your information?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View Postyes, they wait in their own country. Where do you think they wait? The caravans gather and leave from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala once or twice a year, then go through to Mexico to the USA. In the meantime, the people wait at home in Guatemala till it is time for the next caravan.
They can just as easily wait at home after applying for asylum at a local US Embassy. And if they are in imminent danger, the US Embassy can take them in and give them protection. This would be a very, very few of the thousands that travel in the Caravans. Most of the people traveling in the caravans are not in imminent danger.
These people even use chat rooms and the internet to figure out when the next caravan is leaving.
and when they are sent back, they just wait for the next caravan.
I don't know what you have been reading but your ideas about what is going on or the process is just wrong. Where are you getting your information?
Again, your understanding of persecution - and what an embassy can mean for someone - appears to be very limited. The story I posted, 300 people were killed in the protest, 2000 were injured. Many of them were tortured. Those are gross human rights violations, for political beliefs. Thus the necessary and sufficient conditions for asylum. One embassy cannot support that many people as asylum seekers or act as a safe haven. They were also subject to abusive prosecution, detention and other human rights violations.
There are genuine refugees in the area, you want to hand wave that away. You also seem to want to paint them all with the same brush. This is dehumanising and dangerous to genuine refugees.
Get with reality. These are unstable countries, with governments and gangs that persecute people within the five categories of persecution. I get that you don't want that to be true, unfortunately, it is true. You don't want to deal with it, so you come up with execuses as to why it isn't your problem. I get that. I'm sorry, but the world isn't all cake and parties. It is a problem and it needs people that aren't children to step up and deal with it.
Last edited by DesertBerean; 07-29-2019, 11:00 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Zara View Post
Again, your understanding of persecution - and what an embassy can mean for someone - appears to be very limited. The story I posted, 300 people were killed in the protest, 2000 were injured. Many of them were tortured. Those are gross human rights violations, for political beliefs. Thus the necessary and sufficient conditions for asylum. One embassy cannot support that many people as asylum seekers or act as a safe haven. They were also subject to abusive prosecution, detention and other human rights violations.
There are genuine refugees in the area, you want to hand wave that away. You also seem to want to paint them all with the same brush. This is dehumanising and dangerous to genuine refugees.
Get with reality. These are unstable countries, with governments and gangs that persecute people within the five categories of persecution. I get that you don't want that to be true, unfortunately, it is true. You don't want to deal with it, so you come up with execuses as to why it isn't your problem. I get that. I'm sorry, but the world isn't all cake and parties. It is a problem and it needs people that aren't children to step up and deal with it.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat story? On Nicaragua? The people we are talking about are not in Nicaragua. Nicaragua might be one of the only countries in the area with genuine refugees. And they are not trying to come to the USA. They are fleeing to Costa Rica which has an open door policy for them. They are doing what any real refugee does: go to the nearest safe place for asylum, they are not trudging 3000 miles to the USA. That isn't happening in Guatemala or Honduras. Want to try again?
This is outside of my belief that the US owes the country for the gross human rights violations perpetrated as part of the various interventions for economic and political gains by past US administrations. Supporting these countries should be a priority, again, my opinion, since then people won't actually want to leave. People don't put themselves through a great deal of potential suffering if the conditions in these countries isn't terrible. Building a wall doesn't solve those issues - it just hides the problem behind a wall. They remain your neighbours.Last edited by Zara; 07-29-2019, 03:48 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe (and Pelosi and Schumer, Waters and the other Dems) had basically the exact same ideas about illegal immigration that Trump does.
1. We need to stop the flow of illegal immigrants.
2. We can only take in so many per year and they need to meet the correct criteria
3. People need to apply in their home country instead of coming here in caravans.
They only differed on the solution. As we can see Obama's solution did not stop anything. A wall would.
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostNope, the wall is not the only alternative. Immigration reform, making the system itself work, without the necessity of constructing a 2000 mile long wall, not paid for by Mexico. You going to build another 2000 mile long wall along the northern border too, paid for by Canada? How about along the east and west coastlines.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou are from New Zealand, correct?
Your immigration laws and criteria are even more strict than the US.
Maybe you should worry about your back yard before you worry about ours?
My concern is solely about how people are treated during the immigration / asylum-seeking process. Even if the government ends up rejecting their claim and deporting them, what matters is that they were treated well and humanely.
That means a couple of key things:
1. It means not stealing their children off them and then kicking them out of the country without their children so they never see their children again.
2. It means not locking up 50 of them together in a tiny cage with no water except the toilet and no showers and no sanitary products or soap and insufficient temperature control and medical care.
Currently, the US is failing hard at those two things, and that's the issue. NZ isn't. You hand-wavingly conflate the fact that NZ 'detains' a tiny minority of its incoming refugees in decent conditions, with the horrendous conditions in the concentration camps the US is running currently.
Trying to make this an argument about refugee quota is stupid, that's not the point, at all. And, for what it's worth, the party I vote for in NZ wants to quadruple our refugee quotas but lower total immigration (refugees are only a tiny percentage of total immigration)."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
-
Originally posted by Zara View PostOne of the only countries in the area with genuine refugees, are you serious? Again, hand waving so you don't have to deal with the problem, much? Honduras: violence again political protestors (recent protest, 16 killed, 1,300 injured, similar violations), journalists, lawyers, human rights defenders, LGBT people, and people the government doesn't like. All forming genuine refugees. You might not like LGBT people, but if they are persecute, for their identity, they can ask for asylum. Guatemala, violence against journalists, human rights defenders, the indigenous population, women and children as well as wider violence by gangs against one of the five categories - which, in some instances, is sufficient for asylum status.
And you are still ignoring the fact that they are remaining in their own countries waiting on the next caravan. Those actual refugees in Nicaragua? They skidaddled to Costa Rica. They are not waiting for some caravan. So those who are waiting on the caravan are not in imminent danger and can just as well wait for their local application to be processed.
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostNope, the wall is not the only alternative. Immigration reform, making the system itself work, without the necessity of constructing a 2000 mile long wall, not paid for by Mexico. You going to build another 2000 mile long wall along the northern border too, paid for by Canada? How about along the east and west coastlines.Last edited by Sparko; 07-29-2019, 04:24 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Starlight View PostOh, nice. Hi Zara, I was already liking your posts, but nice to see another fellow Kiwi.
I suspect this is false. NZ has one of the highest per-capita immigration rates in the Western world, more than twice the per capita immigration rate of the US last I looked.
Sparko, my concern is not about how many immigrants and refugees are or aren't taken - I firmly believe each country has a complete right to take as few or as many immigrants as it wishes. I don't believe in the libertarian idea of open borders and fully support countries policing their borders to the extent that they want to.
My concern is solely about how people are treated during the immigration / asylum-seeking process. Even if the government ends up rejecting their claim and deporting them, what matters is that they were treated well and humanely.
That means a couple of key things:
1. It means not stealing their children off them and then kicking them out of the country without their children so they never see their children again.
2. It means not locking up 50 of them together in a tiny cage with no water except the toilet and no showers and no sanitary products or soap and insufficient temperature control and medical care.
Currently, the US is failing hard at those two things, and that's the issue. NZ isn't. You hand-wavingly conflate the fact that NZ 'detains' a tiny minority of its incoming refugees in decent conditions, with the horrendous conditions in the concentration camps the US is running currently.
Trying to make this an argument about refugee quota is stupid, that's not the point, at all. And, for what it's worth, the party I vote for in NZ wants to quadruple our refugee quotas but lower total immigration (refugees are only a tiny percentage of total immigration).
Comment
-
Originally posted by Zara View PostHave you seen me use the word genuine a number of times ? Why do you ignore that to continue to post your dumb comments about other types of migrants - this wasn't about them. I don't think the US should have open boarders. I made that clear a number of times. But you keep falling into your own strawman of what I say, because of your assumptions.
You're showing your self to be a real smarty.Last edited by Teallaura; 07-29-2019, 04:36 PM."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostNope, the wall is not the only alternative. Immigration reform, making the system itself work, without the necessity of constructing a 2000 mile long wall, not paid for by Mexico. You going to build another 2000 mile long wall along the northern border too, paid for by Canada? How about along the east and west coastlines."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat story? On Nicaragua? The people we are talking about are not in Nicaragua. Nicaragua might be one of the only countries in the area with genuine refugees. And they are not trying to come to the USA. They are fleeing to Costa Rica which has an open door policy for them. They are doing what any real refugee does: go to the nearest safe place for asylum, they are not trudging 3000 miles to the USA. That isn't happening in Guatemala or Honduras. Want to try again?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
-
Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWe don't have to worry about the Canadian border - the bears will eat anyone dumb enough to try going cross country.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by seer, Yesterday, 11:40 AM
|
2 responses
31 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Diogenes
Yesterday, 03:28 PM
|
||
Started by CivilDiscourse, Yesterday, 06:30 AM
|
15 responses
79 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by seanD
Yesterday, 04:20 PM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 06-03-2024, 11:24 AM
|
25 responses
144 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cow Poke
Yesterday, 04:13 PM
|
||
Started by carpedm9587, 06-03-2024, 09:13 AM
|
43 responses
241 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Yesterday, 08:07 PM
|
||
Started by Cow Poke, 06-02-2024, 09:15 AM
|
31 responses
150 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Yesterday, 08:12 PM
|
Comment