Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - I was demonstrating that anyone and put together a sound, deductive argument that is completely untrue, or cannot be shown to be true. I was attempting to show you that you simply strung together a set of premises that fit your desired conclusion, so you ended up with your desired conclusion. You didn't actually prove anything or show anything to be true.
Seer, anyone can string together a sound syllogism.
P1) I value life
P2) A thing that is value should not be destroyed indiscriminately
C) I should not destroy life indiscriminately
Account for? You mean using the principles of reason to prove the principles of reason exist? Seer - you are on a fools errand. There is a reason they are called "a priori truths." You see - you have to accept them as true in order to use them to prove they are true - and round and round you go...
Are you admitting that you can not account for logical absolutes? And who decides what is an a priori truth is? Do you use rationality to decided? In other words you first need the principles of reason to accept or discover a priori truths. One big circle. The fact is Carp you can not account for logical absolutes.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostBecause, as I noted, it's the definition "as it relates to this context".
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSo what? If God doesn't exist then sentience is nothing more that an accident of evolution and doesn't confer any "hidden or special significance".
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou're just picking an arbitrary attribute that we happen to possess and begging the question that it makes us inherently special.
I said we are sentient - so we can derive meaning. A tree cannot. It's a fact of existence. I never claimed anything "special" except that we have an attribute the tree doesn't. It can photosynthesize and I can't - so it has an attribute I do not possess. That doesn't make me any more "special" than the tree. I have no idea what your point here is.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt's not that you need to, it's that you can't.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostTell me, how would you talk an existential nihilist, who believes that people who claim to have found meaning are either dishonest or deluded, out of putting a bullet in his head?
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostEspecially seeing how you have no rational basis to disagree with him?
You seem to be wanting to universalize meaning - which is pretty much where I predicted you would go. Meaning derived by an individual is "meaningless." Only meaning derived by god is "meaningful." That's a pretty arbitrary distinction.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWho said "special?"
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMeaning is not universal...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostIt's interesting to hear an atheist's perspective on things. That said, you're begging the question rather a lot here. (Not that theists don't do that either, mind you)
I doubt you can demonstrate that God doesn't exist, and I doubt that you can even demonstrate that a Christian cannot be rationally justified in believing that God exists. I don't think that it can be demonstrated (in the sense of 'undeniably prove') that God does exist, so IMHO it's possible to be a rational and reasonable atheist (at least for now), just as one can be a rationally justified Christian. But pointing and cackling at the 'other side' for not being able to demonstrate as true something that you can't demonstrate is false is unproductive.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostElsewhere you said something that makes me wonder if by 'subjective morality' you mean something like the idea that everyone chooses the moral values that they live by, and hence they are subjective. I'd like to point out that that is completely compatible with the Christian's position, which is that there are moral values that are true and real irrespective of what people think about them. So your second paragraph is completely begging the question, in that it assumes that there is no meaning other than what we humans create ourselves, and no moral truths other than those we choose to value.
But the latter part of your statement is a bit off. I did not say there is no meaning outside of what humans create - I said meaning is a function of sentience. It is the sentient mind that derives meaning. Assuming god exists and is sentient, then god too would derive meaning. But there is no "meaning" if there is no mind to conceive it.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostI notice the subjectivity that you hold to in morality slowly creeping to other areas (as I previously said it would). How long before you abandon objective truth in everything?
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostI think that's the ultimate outcome of your present beliefs. If morality is necessarily subjective because we all choose the values we live by, then everything is subjective, because we are all individuals with unique perspectives and experiences.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostWho can say that what you experience when you see 'green' is what I experience when I see 'green'?
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostI'd hate to see you end up a complete subjectivist, because (a) it's false, and (b) it's unliveable and will destroy your relationships and your life.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostLastly, my main objection to your position on morality is not that I think I can prove or demonstrate to your satisfaction the existence of objectively true moral values, but that you yourself don't live as if what you believe is true is actually true. That is, you act as if morality is objective (in your arguments for your moral values, the language you use, and the effort you put in to arguing). I think others here have the same objection, so your response above in the second paragraph rather misses the point.
When we derive a moral framework, we use that framework to not only assess our own behavior - but that of any other sentient being around us. We hold the moral framework because we believe it is best. We recognize that if all humans valued as we value, and moralized as we moralize, the world would conform to our idea of "best." So we strive to convince those around us to adopt our views. We gather with those who share our views to have a society that aligns with our idea of "best," and for protection against those who do not so align. When we cannot convince others to share our views, we resort to the only options possible: ignore (for the trivial things), isolate/separate (for the more concerning things) or contend (for the most critical things).
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostIf you have time or inclination, look at the most recent pages of the 'Buttgeig v Trump' thread where Tassman has run smack into the same problem.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think the theist makes a lot of irrational leaps...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAnd none of the above precludes morality from being objective, or, if there is an absolute moral framework, people from being able to discover and align their own moral values with that framework.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostBased on the fact that I've never seen you sufficiently demonstrate your view that morality is by nature subjective I can only conclude that this is simply you begging the question.
Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYour comparisons with an atheist who is living like a theist, or the person who believes they are a dog is simply not valid. You've in no way shape or form been able to show that it's impossible for an absolute moral framework to exist, or, if it exists, that it's impossible to find out how that moral framework looks like and choose to adopt it.
Seer is right - there is no difference in kind between "I ought not eat that pizza" and "I ought not kill that man." The difference is in degree - in depth of valuing. It is entirely possible (though not particularly probable) that one person will be wired in such a way that "pizza" is valued above "life," leading to what most of us would see as a bizarre (and dangerous) moral code. It happens all the time for other things, though. Money above life. Power above life. Happiness above life. When someone who has such a moral code, we can try to convince them to moralize otherwise. If we cannot do so successfully, then we will act to protect ourselves. In this case, the issue is critical enough to most of us that "ignore" won't be adequate, so we will either isolate/separate (i.e., put in jail or exile) or contend (wage war, etc.).
This is what we see all around us every day. You (and others) want to claim that there is a "moral absolute" in much the same way that there are mathematical and logical absolutes. But you confront a simple problem: if all sentience in the universe were to end right now, there would still be two planets between this one and the sun of this solar system. And there would still be six others, and the total would still be nine. There would be no one to say those words, or use those symbols, but the reality would exist. If there were no sentience, a thing would still not be able to exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way. But there would be no "morality." "Thou shalt not kill" would not exist as a concept or a principle. If non-sentient life continued, killing would exist. But the idea that there is something bad or wrong or undesirable about it, or that it ought not be done, would simply cease to be. It is not possible to conceive of a mindless universe with "moral" principles. It is possible to conceive of a mindless universe in which 2 + 2 is still 4 and a thing can still not "exist" and "not exist" at the same time and in the same way.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-13-2019, 10:36 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight, and I'm sure that if the ant could articulate it he would say that his life had a subjective meaning - right before you stepped on him.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd since when do you speak for all atheists?
Originally posted by seer View PostDo you speak for nihilistic atheists?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Carp, I was speaking of this:
Originally posted by seer View PostThat is not a sound deductive argument, yet you thought it was until I called you on it. And your little syllogism above didn't prove anything either. So what is your point about proof?
P1) I value life
P2) A thing that is valued should not be destroyed indiscriminately
C) I should not destroy life indiscriminately
Originally posted by seer View PostAre you admitting that you can not account for logical absolutes?
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd who decides what is an a priori truth is?
The basic laws of logic are descriptions of how reasoning work. You have to use them to even make the argument you are trying to make, which is badly begging the question.
Originally posted by seer View PostDo you use rationality to decided?
Originally posted by seer View PostIn other words you first need the principles of reason to accept or discover a priori truths. One big circle. The fact is Carp you can not account for logical absolutes.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt's in the definition: "implication of a hidden or special significance."
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou claim that sentience grants us this quality, but that's just you begging the question.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe fact is that if atheism is true then our lives have no "hidden or special significance".
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe qualification being "if atheism is true", which is exactly my point. And if atheism is true then whatever "meaning" you think you've found is nothing more than a fiction you tell yourself to help you get out of bed in the morning.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe fact that you have no defense against this line of reasoning is significant.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-13-2019, 10:41 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostFor instance?
I don't find a need to twist myself into such pretzels. I am fine with the "self-evident" nature of the laws of reason, and proceeding from there.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIf it did - then it would indeed believe it's existence had meaning.
Ahh... I said "the atheist" instead of "this atheist." You are right to catch me on it. I speak for myself. Other atheists will have to speak for themselves.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes, right before you stepped on it. Suggesting that his meaning, like yours, is as substantial as smoke....
I live and will die - am I therefore not real?
The earth will go out of existence eventually - is it therefore not real?
The sun will blink out of existence eventually - is it therefore not real?
Where is it written that for a thing to be "real" it must be eternal or absolute? How did that get added to the definition of "real" or "true?"
Yes, the meanings I derive are transient and will someday end. That does not make them "unreal." They are quite real - as long as they last.
Originally posted by seer View PostYes, the other rational atheists who understand the nihilistic implication of their atheism...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight, and I'm sure that if the ant could articulate it he would say that his life had a subjective meaning - right before you stepped on him. And since when do you speak for all atheists? Do you speak for nihilistic atheists?
Or as atheist philosopher Alex Rosenberg puts it in The Atheist's Guide to Reality,
"Here is a list of some of the questions and their short answers The rest of the book explains the answers in more detail. Given what we know from the sciences, the answers are all pretty obvious. The interesting thing is to recognize how totally unavoidable they are, provided you place your confidence in science to provide the answers.
Is there a God? No.
What is the nature of reality? What physics says it is.
What is the purpose of the universe? There is none.
What is the meaning of life? Ditto.
Why am I here? Just dumb luck.
Does prayer work? Of course not.
Is there a soul? Is it immortal? Are you kidding?
Is there free will? Not a chance!
What happens when we die? Everything pretty much goes on as before, except us.
What is the difference between right and wrong, good and bad? There is no moral difference between them.
Why should I be moral? Because it makes you feel better than being immoral.
Is abortion, euthanasia, suicide, paying taxes, foreign aid, or anything else you don't like forbidden, permissible, or sometimes obligatory? Anything goes.
What is love, and how can I find it? Love is the solution to a strategic interaction problem. Don't look for it; it will find you when you need it.
Does history have any meaning or purpose? It's full of sound and fury, but signifies nothing.
Does the human past have any lessons for our future? Fewer and fewer, if it ever had any to begin with."
"When it comes to making life meaningful, what secular humanists hanker after is something they can't have and don't need. What they do need, if meaninglessness makes it impossible to get out of bed in the morning, is Prozac."
In a Godless world where there is no cosmic justice, and where morality is purely subjective, imagine telling the young victim of the holocaust that "meaning is what we bring to life," while her captor escapes punishment and leads a long and fulfilling life in Argentina believing that his actions were just and noble. Life on this planet is often harsh and cruel, with most people throughout history scratching and clawing just to survive. The absurdity of someone sitting comfortably in their middle class home in the developed West, with all of the freedoms afforded them by 2000 years of Christian influence, asserting that morality and meaning is ultimately subjective, but "gosh darnit, just carve out your own meaning. It's just as real."
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat's a LONG list, Seer - most of which has been discussed before. The leaps differ in detail by religion. But every religion I have encountered bends itself into a pretzel to ascribe attributes to god that are often irrational - and most religions simply try to replace "I don't know" with "god did it." Your argument about "logical foundations for reason" is a great example. At its heart, you are arguing that because there is no naturalistic explanation for the laws of reason, "god did it." But you have to engage in a badly circular argument to get there.
I don't find a need to twist myself into such pretzels. I am fine with the "self-evident" nature of the laws of reason, and proceeding from there.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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