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Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-20-2019, 03:40 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Carp, I do believe that the laws or logic are absolute and universal, and I offered a deductive argument for why I think that is so.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOf COURSE you cannot avoid circularity - if I try to make a logical proof for the fundamental principles of logic. I have been saying that since the outset. I can explain why I accept them - how it is we "recognize" or "intuit" their correctness - but no logical proof about the fundamental laws of logic can escape circularity. That's pretty much the point.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo I notice you avoided answering the question. You do that a lot. And I am aware you offered a deductive proof that the laws of logic are absolute/universal, using those laws to construct your proof. As previously noted - that is circular. So again, do you think your deductive argument could be shown to be valid (we have already determined that you failed to show it to be sound) if the fundamental laws of logic are NOT absolute/universal?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd you can not decide what is self-evident with out applying or having a standard. And applying a standard, as you said, makes it circular.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI've responded to this ample times. I'll leave the last word to you.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI did not avoid the question.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut again, what do you have against circular arguments - since you accept them when it comes to deciding what is self evident.
You, on the other hand, are positing a logical argument, using the very principles you are trying to prove, and then claiming a) it's not circular and b) you've established god explains the existence of logical absolutes.
You've done nothing of the kind. I constructed two other arguments that came to the same conclusions using other things as premises. Both were just as circular as yours. Both have premises that cannot be shown to be true, rendering the argument's soundness in question (a soundness that can only be evaluated if the logical principles they purport to show are actually absolute and universal). I constructed them to show the flaw in your argument. You can no more establish "god as the source of logical absolute/universals" than I can show "the universe as the source of logical absolutes/universals."
We agree logical absolutes/universals exist. Neither one of us has any possibility of proving it OR demonstrating their source. But you seem to think you do.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, you are backed into a corner and you know it Carp. You accept circular reasoning when it comes to deciding what is self-evident or not (based on your own definition) but chide me if I use it to justify logical absolutes. That again is your double standard...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe difference, Seer, is that I recognize a "circular argument" does not prove anything. I have repeatedly noted that any logical argument that tries to establish the existence of universal/absolute logical principles essentially fails to prove anything, because it is circular. I have repeatedly said "I cannot make a logical argument to logical defend these principles without circularity" I can explain to you the factors that intuitively lead to my accepting them, but that's about it. And, as you note, those factors will get me into a circle if I try to frame them as a logical argument.
You, on the other hand, are positing a logical argument, using the very principles you are trying to prove, and then claiming a) it's not circular and b) you've established god explains the existence of logical absolutes.
You've done nothing of the kind. I constructed two other arguments that came to the same conclusions using other things as premises. Both were just as circular as yours. Both have premises that cannot be shown to be true, rendering the argument's soundness in question (a soundness that can only be evaluated if the logical principles they purport to show are actually absolute and universal). I constructed them to show the flaw in your argument. You can no more establish "god as the source of logical absolute/universals" than I can show "the universe as the source of logical absolutes/universals."
We agree logical absolutes/universals exist. Neither one of us has any possibility of proving it OR demonstrating their source. But you seem to think you do.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo you agree that how you decide what is self-evident is circular and does not prove anything?
That is the primary difference between you and I. I recognize the circularity and that it doesn't prove anything. You seem to believe your circular argument actually proves something. I can use exactly the same structure to "prove" universal logical absolutes arise from spores, or the fabric of space, or the ether, or unicorns.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have said that from the outset, Seer. There is no logical argument that can be framed about logical concepts existing, being absolute, or being universal that is not circular and hence does not prove anything. I have noted that establishing a "standard" will get one caught up in circularity again. The basis for logic are accepted as true without that logical support because it cannot be done.
That is the primary difference between you and I. I recognize the circularity and that it doesn't prove anything. You seem to believe your circular argument actually proves something. I can use exactly the same structure to "prove" universal logical absolutes arise from spores, or the fabric of space, or the ether, or unicorns.Last edited by seer; 06-21-2019, 08:10 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo there is no rational justification for anything, including self-evident truths?
We intuit them at best. We affirm their validity by how they fit into our lives - into the fabric of existence, if you will. From them, we build rational arguments. But the foundation of those logical arguments is widely assumed/accepted to be true without a formal logical proof. If that means, for you, that all reason is "irrational," then so be it. It doesn't mean that to me. I accept the universality/absoluteness of the basic logical concepts and proceed from there. There is no other choice. And "rational," as it is being used here, basically means "correct application of the foundational laws of logic." SO there is no conflict.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd no you can not make an argument for conceptual logical absolutes from spores, fabric of space, etc... since conceptual truths are mind dependent.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 08:29 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo. You are into black/white thinking again. The existence of logical absolutes/universals cannot be logically proven without getting caught in a circle, for reasons that should be fairly self evident.
Of course the laws of logic are absolute. God makes them so, He is the source... And even if the argument is circular as we have seen you have no problem accepting circular reasoning...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut deciding what is self-evident or not also requires circular reasoning, which you do not seem to mind. And in fact you embrace it.
Originally posted by seer View PostOf course the laws of logic are absolute. God makes them so, He is the source... And even if the argument is circular as we have seen you have no problem accepting circular reasoning...Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-21-2019, 08:48 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostMind? Of course I "mind." I'd love to be able to build rational arguments for everything. Embrace - no. It sticks in my craw that there is no way to do this. Accept - yes. When something cannot be other than it is, I accept the reality of it. Trying to twist myself into knots to reject what is patently obvious seems an exercise in futility to me. The fact is, I can make no logical statements/proofs about the logical absolutes/universals themselves. It is simply not possible.
I already said I assumed that the laws of logical were universal, and of course said laws are absolute since they are a reflection of God's immutable rational nature. And how can you honestly dismiss circular reasoning since that is the basis for your self-evident truths, or even for knowing reality in the first place (as we discussed in the past).Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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