Originally posted by shunyadragon
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The strange greatness of Donald Trump
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou have yet to show how this would be any more imbalanced at the national level than it is at the state or district or town level.
And, besides, "mob rule" can be a problem even at the local level. In my city, for instance, city council members are elected on a straight popular vote. The problem is that the most densely populated areas of the city lean strongly Democrat, so we have an exclusively Democrat governing body from the mayor on down. A district system was proposed by some citizens to try and encourage more equal representation, but it was unanimously rejected by the city council who is unwilling to give up their power monopoly.
Like I said, mob rule is great as long as it's your mob who rules.
You're also ignoring the fact that even at the national level, the system is deliberately designed to promote representation of an entire state's population, which is why we have Republican congressmen even from a dark blue state like California. The wisdom of the Founding Fathers is illustrated by the fact that, unlike my own city, it is virtually impossible for any single political power to maintain a lock on any one branch of government.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTrump is indeed strange, oh so unbelievably bizzaro strange.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, perhaps, you'd like the title to be "The Great Strangeness of Donald Trump"?
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostA bad argument is a bad argument - it doesn't matter when it was put forward and by whom it was put forward.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTrump is indeed strange, oh so unbelievably bizzaro 'Great Strangeness.'
Sounds better.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSurely you recognize that the dynamics of national politics are distinctly different from the state and local level where the imbalance is often less pronounced, and leaders are closer to and more directly answerable to the people. That sort of system doesn't scale up.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAnd, besides, "mob rule" can be a problem even at the local level. In my city, for instance, city council members are elected on a straight popular vote. The problem is that the most densely populated areas of the city lean strongly Democrat, so we have an exclusively Democrat governing body from the mayor on down. A district system was proposed by some citizens to try and encourage more equal representation, but it was unanimously rejected by the city council who is unwilling to give up their power monopoly.
Like I said, mob rule is great as long as it's your mob who rules.
You're also ignoring the fact that even at the national level, the system is deliberately designed to promote representation of an entire state's population, which is why we have Republican congressmen even from a dark blue state like California. The wisdom of the Founding Fathers is illustrated by the fact that, unlike my own city, it is virtually impossible for any single political power to maintain a lock on any one branch of government.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWell, true. The argument you put forward IS bad, but not because you advanced it.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - I do not. That is true for some states (i.e., Rhode Island is almost completely urban/suburban, while Wyoming and Alaska are predominantly rural) but most states have the same kind of urban rural mix at the state level that exists at the national level (California, Texas, New York, Virginia, Florida, Illinois, and the list goes on). You are attempting to carve out an exception without justification.
The dynamic you describe is more a function of a) gerrymandering" and b) self-sorting mobility than it is a function of "mob rule." Again - I find no justification in any part of your post for giving one person's vote 50%+ more power than another person's vote solely on the basis of where they live. One person - one vote. It's a simple concept.
As for your "one person, one vote" nonsense, I think Thomas Jefferson put it best: A democracy allows 51% of the population to vote to suppress the rights of the other 49%.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain ManI suppose I should point out that I disagree with your assertion that the electoral college gives an unfair advantage to small states. It doesn't. On the contrary, it's a weighting system with the intent of giving everyone an equal opportunity to have his voice heard. It prevents a state like Rhode Island or Vermont from being lost in the mob of states like California and Florida. California with its large number of electoral votes still has a very loud voice, it just doesn't have an overpowering one; in other words, the electoral college is working exactly as intended.
California: 39.56 million people / 55 electoral votes = 719,272 persons/electoral vote
Wyoming: 577,737 / 3 electoral votes = 192,579 persons/electoral vote
Ergo, a vote by someone from Wyoming has 373% the weight of a vote by someone from California. This discrepancy is at its extreme between California and Wyoming because we have the most populous state with the least populous state, but it exists between all states to varying degrees.
Rhode Island: 1.059 people / 4 electoral votes = 264,909 persons/electoral vote
So the vote of someone from Rhode Island has 137.6% the weight of a person from Wyoming.
There is no rational justification for this discrepancy in votes. One person - one vote - simple.
Originally posted by Mountain ManAs for your "one person, one vote" nonsense, I think Thomas Jefferson put it best: A democracy allows 51% of the population to get to suppress the rights of the other 49%.
Majority rules has a long history, and is not equivalent to "mob rule," despite your attempt to paint it as such. When the vote is 66M to 63M - you have two mobs of slightly differing sizes. There is no reason to consider 63M people any less a "mob" than 66M. So you just want the smaller mob to be able to win, apparently.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-09-2019, 11:24 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostErgo, a vote by someone from Wyoming has 373% the weight of a vote by someone from California.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThere is no rational justification for this discrepancy in votes.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAny voting system will permit those who win the vote to suppress the rights of those who don't. There is no voting system you can design that does not have this characteristic.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYes, and it's all in the interest of preventing big dog states like California from ruling the entire country. You're trying to erase borders and say that the interests of individual states shouldn't matter when choosing a president. That's just ignorant.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYes, there is. It was debated to a great extent by our Founding Fathers, and you should have been taught the rationale for it in high school civics. As I said before, it has been my experience that those who argue against the electoral college are usually the ones who don't understand it.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostBut it can be mitigated to a very great extent by allowing everyone to have a proportionally equal voice which promotes equal representation; to put it another way, you design a system where the majority doesn't always get its way. And as history proves, this system has worked exceptionally well for the United States, preventing any one political entity from gaining a permanent stranglehold on the country. Wanting to upend the entire infrastructure just because Hillary lost is naive and shortsighted.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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When you dismiss the expert opinions of those who extensively debated the ideas we find in the a Constitution as an "appeal to authority" then I know any further discussion with you is pointless.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWhen you dismiss the expert opinions of those who extensively debated the ideas we find in the a Constitution as an "appeal to authority" then I know any further discussion with you is pointless.
ETA: You do this a lot, MM, at least in our discussions. You rail against a stated position, provide no actual argument against it - ignore most of the points made - and then simply declare further discussion pointless. Going back through this exchange, I find multiple points made which have zero response made from you. I have to conclude you have no rebuttals for those points, and simply prefer to ignore them. And now your core argument appears to be "the experts say so," which is a blatant appeal to authority. Even experts can be wrong - and I have outlined why I believe they were - or at least are for our time.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-09-2019, 03:23 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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