Transgender sprinters finish 1st, 2nd at Connecticut girls indoor track championships

[Bill the Cat]

In plenty of human cultures in the past, and some in the present, genders were not identical to sexes.

The Bugis people of Indonesia have 5 genders. Native American tribes typically had 3 or 4.

The fact that Western culture for hundreds of years had only 2 genders that were identified with biological sex, is misleading you to assume that's the way it has to work. It doesn't. Recognizing more than 2 genders is a really common cultural pattern and found throughout history on all continents. 2-gender societies would be the historical minority.

It is necessary to distinguish gender and sex to talk about what is occurring in these multi-gender societies, where biological males and females can take on a variety of different gender roles.

Obviously, in all cultures there have been people born who didn't identity with their biological sex or were not satisfied with it in some way or who wanted to be the other sex. Likewise in all cultures there have been people born who were sexually attracted to people of the same sex as them. So there has been pressure in all cultures to develop cultural frameworks for accommodating these things. Recently, in Western culture there has been the development of the idea of same-sex marriage and of people being 'trans'. Some historical cultures have taken similar approaches to that, others slightly different. But in the vast majority of cultures there are some sort of frameworks to accommodate people like that.

Historically, the most common approach in other cultures was to deal with both in a single framework of a 3rd gender: Male, Female, & Other, and allow people to opt-out of their male or female identity and join the Other category, and then marriages were allowed between any two people not of the same gender thus allowing same sex marriages to occur between a Male and Other or Female and Other. A common pattern in Native American tribes was that a Male was the head of each household and he could marry as many Females as he wished and up to one Other who could be the same sex as him.

I'll just leave this for now. Too busy to address the rest...

The Bugis people live mainly on Sulawesi and believe in five genders including LGBTI people, with the most important being the bissu. In addition to cisgender males (oroani) and females (makkunrai), there are female men (calalai), male women (calabai) and then the intersex bissu.

As I said, gender cannot be separated from the concepts of male and female.

[MaxVel]

Yes I agree with you that women's sporting events should exclude trans people, for the simple reason that it appears to be unfair and trans-people appear to have physical advantages.

While I don't share your many and various homophobic and transphobic views and while I think you are almost always anti-science in all your views on the subject.... on the narrow issue of women's sports I'll agree with you... if someone is going to the effort of having a women-only sporting event for the sake of allowing women to be successful at it in a way they wouldn't be if it were open to males too, then it doesn't make much sense to include trans people in that event because their bodies will be somewhere on the spectrum between male and female and this will likely defeat the whole point of having a separate category for women.

Some people have tried to create medical standards around hormone levels etc, with the hope that this would allow trans-women who complied with them to compete with cisgender women on a level playing field, but my understanding is that such standards have so far failed to ensure equality and that it is common for trans-women to outcompete women under these standards. Until that standard is improved to a point where it's effective at ensuring equality, the simplest work-around is to require all transgender people to compete in the men's event, and treat that as an open event.

The problem is, I think, that people who have grown up as biological men have the effects of testosterone (such as higher bone mass, male body proportions, limb length, musculature etc) all or in large part remaining even after they have transitioned to female. See the trans Australian Rules player I referenced upthread, for example. That gives them a number of significant physical advantages over non-trans atheletes (biological women) that make competition in most sports unbalanced, and in some (high physical contact or martial sports) actually dangerous for the women.

No set of regulations or hormone tests is ever going to balance that out, except possibly for people who transition male --> female fairly early in puberty. And there are 12 year old boys who are already at that age physically bigger and stronger than most women will ever be.

[rogue06]

Consult a dictionary.

As someone once whined when told to do his own research -- even when provided with a hyperlink to follow

Thanks for nothing. I thought we were having a reasonable discussion - my mistake.

Hypocrite

[seer]

Yes I agree with you that women's sporting events should exclude trans people, for the simple reason that it appears to be unfair and trans-people appear to have physical advantages.

So you would a agree that a biological man, in the end, is not a woman.

[Bill the Cat]

The problem is, I think, that people who have grown up as biological men have the effects of testosterone (such as higher bone mass, male body proportions, limb length, musculature etc) all or in large part remaining even after they have transitioned to female. See the trans Australian Rules player I referenced upthread, for example. That gives them a number of significant physical advantages over non-trans atheletes (biological women) that make competition in most sports unbalanced, and in some (high physical contact or martial sports) actually dangerous for the women.

No set of regulations or hormone tests is ever going to balance that out, except possibly for people who transition male --> female fairly early in puberty. And there are 12 year old boys who are already at that age physically bigger and stronger than most women will ever be.

See, that's the problem. Body mutilation does not "transition" them to female. It's cosmetic alteration. Every cell in their body has male chromosomes. Artificial hormones are fighting those cells to suppress their natural expression. Using the term "transition" begs the question that sexes CAN be changed.

[Cow Poke]

Still refuse to read my post, huh? It's making you look really dumb.

I'm "dumb" because I don't pay enough attention to your drivel? You really need to get a life. You're demonstrating what a petty little person you are.

[Electric Skeptic]

Exactly. You are incapable of doing so because you know I am right.

No, I'm quite capable of consulting a dictionary. Are you not?

[Cow Poke]

The problem is, I think, that people who have grown up as biological men have the effects of testosterone (such as higher bone mass, male body proportions, limb length, musculature etc) all or in large part remaining even after they have transitioned to female. See the trans Australian Rules player I referenced upthread, for example. That gives them a number of significant physical advantages over non-trans atheletes (biological women) that make competition in most sports unbalanced, and in some (high physical contact or martial sports) actually dangerous for the women.

No set of regulations or hormone tests is ever going to balance that out, except possibly for people who transition male --> female fairly early in puberty. And there are 12 year old boys who are already at that age physically bigger and stronger than most women will ever be.

Although I think Elly May can whoop Jethro Bodine.

[Electric Skeptic]

Yes I agree with you that women's sporting events should exclude trans people, for the simple reason that it appears to be unfair and trans-people appear to have physical advantages.

While I don't share your many and various homophobic and transphobic views and while I think you are almost always anti-science in all your views on the subject.... on the narrow issue of women's sports I'll agree with you... if someone is going to the effort of having a women-only sporting event for the sake of allowing women to be successful at it in a way they wouldn't be if it were open to males too, then it doesn't make much sense to include trans people in that event because their bodies will be somewhere on the spectrum between male and female and this will likely defeat the whole point of having a separate category for women.

Some people have tried to create medical standards around hormone levels etc, with the hope that this would allow trans-women who complied with them to compete with cisgender women on a level playing field, but my understanding is that such standards have so far failed to ensure equality and that it is common for trans-women to outcompete women under these standards. Until that standard is improved to a point where it's effective at ensuring equality, the simplest work-around is to require all transgender people to compete in the men's event, and treat that as an open event.

An additional complication in the "medical standards around hormone levels etc," thing is intersex people like Caster Semenya. There've been a number of attempts around various bodily levels at getting something definite and fair, but they never seem to work - someone is always getting ex- or included who someone thinks is unfair.

It's a very difficult issue.

[rogue06]

war-on-women.jpg

I feel sorry for the women in the lives of men who think that just by putting on a dress and saying that they feel "girly" that this makes a man just as much of a woman as they are

[Electric Skeptic]

As someone once whined when told to do his own research -- even when provided with a hyperlink to follow

Hypocrite

Rofl you're still going on about that? Did y our feelings get hurt?

[Electric Skeptic]

I'm "dumb" because I don't pay enough attention to your drivel? You really need to get a life. You're demonstrating what a petty little person you are.

Yes, you're dumb because you continue to falsify someone's position when they have repeatedly urged you to read a post of theirs which outlines their position precisely.

You really need to learn how to have a conversation. You're demonstrating what a petty little person you are.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, you're dumb because you continue to falsify someone's position when they have repeatedly urged you to read a post of theirs which outlines their position precisely.

You really need to learn how to have a conversation. You're demonstrating what a petty little person you are.

Ah, so now the "oh, yeah? well you're one, too!"

Sheeeeesh!

Biological males should NOT be allowed to compete in sports events for Biological women where the biological male has a distinct advantage.

[Electric Skeptic]

war-on-women.jpg

I feel sorry for the women in the lives of men who think that just by putting on a dress and saying that they feel "girly" that this makes a man just as much of a woman as they are

The author is fortunate that nobody is either:
- erasing her sex and/or trivializing it to accommodate everyone else or
- telling females that all the things that are unique and special to them apply to everyone.

her transphobic feelings notwithstanding.

[Electric Skeptic]

Ah, so now the "oh, yeah? well you're one, too!"

Sheeeeesh!

Biological males should NOT be allowed to compete in sports events for Biological women where the biological male has a distinct advantage.

If you can't be bothered to learn a person's position on something before you invent falsehoods about that position, you do need to learn how to have a conversation.