Homophobic Trump...

[One Bad Pig]

There is zero military reason to bar individuals from service on the basis of you "not liking" their particular state in life.

Conversely, there is every military reason to bar individuals who are mentally unstable. Military service depends on people who can function under fire, not those who are exceedingly likely to fall apart under stress. One person in a critical position breaking down at the wrong moment can doom entire units. There are many disqualifiers for military service; mental unfitness should absolutely be one of them.

[seer]

Sadly - they are not able to serve - for now. When Trump is gone, I have confidence that the situation will again be reversed and these people will be thanked for their service, instead of being vilified for wanting to serve.

Of course it will change, evil and madness in this world tends to win out...

[carpedm9587]

Tell me who is let into the military who already has on going medical problems that require on going medical attention? Be specific please.

If we are talking mental disorders, then someone with depression, panic disorder, or ADHD can be admitted, depending on the severity and other associated issues. Physically, vision problems are acceptable depending on the position (e.g., a clerk has a different requirement than a pilot). Indeed, there are many medical conditions that are accepted, but bounds placed on their severity. That includes skull deformities, vision or hearing loss, and the list goes on. Basically, you have to subtract. The military does not publish, as far as I can tell, a list of "permitted medical conditions." It publishes a list of "not permitted" medical conditions and lists boundary conditions for many - implying you are permitted if you have the condition and fall within the proscribed boundary. Presumably, anything not on the list is permitted.

[carpedm9587]

Conversely, there is every military reason to bar individuals who are mentally unstable. Military service depends on people who can function under fire, not those who are exceedingly likely to fall apart under stress. One person in a critical position breaking down at the wrong moment can doom entire units. There are many disqualifiers for military service; mental unfitness should absolutely be one of them.

So it remains to show that a trans-gender person is more likely to "fall apart under stress" than a non-trans person. So far, no one has been able to furnish that information.

[carpedm9587]

Of course it will change, evil and madness in this world tends to win out...

You're clearly a pessimist. I tend to think that openness and inclusion and decency tend to win out. Sometimes we have temporary setbacks - like Trump. But eventually even he will get his day, and we will sweep him into the dustbin of history and move on. That day cannot come soon enough for me. Crossing my fingers that we have less than 2 years left.

But I am saddened to see that anyone who is willing to serve their country would be labeled "evil and mad." If there is anything I consider unpatriotic - vilifying any of the men and women willing to serve this country is definitely on the list.

[Sparko]

That has been largely debunked.



The same excuse was used about women - and then about gays. I see no reason to think it is any more likely to be true here.



That is a decision a military unit can make - and apparently has been making for a few years now with no reported problems that I can find.



Diabetes is a potentially disabling condition with MANY side effects (eyesight, strength, etc.). The lack of medication (if they are Type I) is life threatening. The dietary restrictions (both Type I and Type II) would create an incredible burden on a field unit. I know of no such dietary restrictions for a trans person, and the medication you are talking about is (AFAICT) hormone treatment. It is not, AFAIK, a life threatening medication if absent.

Hormones regulate emotions too. You don't want an overly emotional soldier breaking down, running, or going postal during an engagement, or even anywhere around guns. And having to keep up with their treatments and shots while in the field is an extra burden on the doctors. They are dependent on getting their regular hormone shots.

[One Bad Pig]

So it remains to show that a trans-gender person is more likely to "fall apart under stress" than a non-trans person. So far, no one has been able to furnish that information.

Transgender persons are orders of magnitude more likely to commit suicide. Feel free to pretend there's no connection between suicide and stress.

[carpedm9587]

Hormones regulate emotions too. You don't want an overly emotional soldier breaking down, running, or going postal during an engagement, or even anywhere around guns. And having to keep up with their treatments and shots while in the field is an extra burden on the doctors. They are dependent on getting their regular hormone shots.

SO show me evidence that a Trans person who is "missing their hormone shots" poses any of these kinds of risk to their unit in the field, and I will agree with you.

[carpedm9587]

Transgender persons are orders of magnitude more likely to commit suicide. Feel free to pretend there's no connection between suicide and stress.

There is absolutely a connection between suicide and stress. And stress comes in many forms for people serving our country. AFAICT, the primary source of stress for a trans person is the people who treat them like scum, attack their honor, question their morality, and label them "twisted, evil, mad," and all the rest. That is going to take time to change in society. Historically, the military has made these adjustments far faster than society in general (see the post below about "social experiments."

And the only reference to suicide in the list of medical deferments is "suicidal ideation." (58.m). It does not identify any group more or less prone to suicide. Gays are more prone to suicide than straight people. Older people commit suicide at a higher rate than younger people. White people commit suicide at a higher rate than black people. Men commit suicide at a rate 3.54 times that of women. If "more likely to commit suicide" were an impediment, our military should be comprised of only straight, black, women.

I'm being facetious, obviously, but this objection falls into a highly biased class: if you are a member of this group you should be discriminated against because this group <insert reason X here>. I repeat - I am not a fan of semi-random discrimination. Show me that a given person has a problem - then I agree they should be excluded. Tell me that an entire group should be excluded - then you have to give me a disqualifying characteristic that applies to EVERY member of that group. Otherwise, it's an exercise in discrimination.

[Sparko]

SO show me evidence that a Trans person who is "missing their hormone shots" poses any of these kinds of risk to their unit in the field, and I will agree with you.

No. You know what, I am not going to play this game with you, after doing it in the border thread. You couldn't care less what anyone "shows you" because you will just ignore it as usual. If you want to find out the effect on emotional stability for hormone therapy, go find it yourself. I don't really care if you believe me. I have nothing to prove to you.

[seer]

If we are talking mental disorders, then someone with depression, panic disorder, or ADHD can be admitted, depending on the severity and other associated issues. Physically, vision problems are acceptable depending on the position (e.g., a clerk has a different requirement than a pilot). Indeed, there are many medical conditions that are accepted, but bounds placed on their severity. That includes skull deformities, vision or hearing loss, and the list goes on. Basically, you have to subtract. The military does not publish, as far as I can tell, a list of "permitted medical conditions." It publishes a list of "not permitted" medical conditions and lists boundary conditions for many - implying you are permitted if you have the condition and fall within the proscribed boundary. Presumably, anything not on the list is permitted.

From your link:

Neurotic, Anxiety, Mood, Somatoform, Dissociative, or Factitious Disorders
The causes for rejection for appointment, enlistment, and induction are a history of such disorders resulting in any or all of the below:

a. Admission to a hospital or residential facility.

b. Care by a physician or other mental health professional for more than 6 months.

c. Symptoms or behavior of a repeated nature that impaired social, school, or work efficiency.


Psychosexual Conditions
The causes for rejection for appointment, enlistment, and induction are transsexualism, exhibitionism, transvestitism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias.

Never mind the Psychosexual Conditions, how many Trans would fall under A&B?

[seer]

But I am saddened to see that anyone who is willing to serve their country would be labeled "evil and mad." If there is anything I consider unpatriotic - vilifying any of the men and women willing to serve this country is definitely on the list.

I'm not calling them evil and mad, I'm calling the mind set that wants to force the military to accept them mad and evil, specifically political correctness, identity politics, and leftism in general.

But eventually even he will get his day, and we will sweep him into the dustbin of history and move on. That day cannot come soon enough for me. Crossing my fingers that we have less than 2 years left.

And I'm sure you will rise high in the new Politburo...

[seer]

There is absolutely a connection between suicide and stress. And stress comes in many forms for people serving our country. AFAICT, the primary source of stress for a trans person is the people who treat them like scum, attack their honor, question their morality, and label them "twisted, evil, mad," and all the rest. That is going to take time to change in society. Historically, the military has made these adjustments far faster than society in general (see the post below about "social experiments."

Yet in Sweden, where trans are widely accepted, we still see this:

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...andiner_201802

[One Bad Pig]

There is absolutely a connection between suicide and stress. And stress comes in many forms for people serving our country. AFAICT, the primary source of stress for a trans person is the people who treat them like scum, attack their honor, question their morality, and label them "twisted, evil, mad," and all the rest. That is going to take time to change in society. Historically, the military has made these adjustments far faster than society in general (see the post below about "social experiments."

And the only reference to suicide in the list of medical deferments is "suicidal ideation." (58.m). It does not identify any group more or less prone to suicide. Gays are more prone to suicide than straight people. Older people commit suicide at a higher rate than younger people. White people commit suicide at a higher rate than black people. Men commit suicide at a rate 3.54 times that of women. If "more likely to commit suicide" were an impediment, our military should be comprised of only straight, black, women.

I'm being facetious, obviously, but this objection falls into a highly biased class: if you are a member of this group you should be discriminated against because this group <insert reason X here>. I repeat - I am not a fan of semi-random discrimination. Show me that a given person has a problem - then I agree they should be excluded. Tell me that an entire group should be excluded - then you have to give me a disqualifying characteristic that applies to EVERY member of that group. Otherwise, it's an exercise in discrimination.

You're free to believe what you want to believe, carpe. Your "higher rate" is a rather false equivalence to "orders of magnitude higher," but thanks for trying. In my experience, homosexuals, much less transsexuals, do not handle stress well (I've worked with both in my very diversity-conscious place of employment). My gay roommate in college moved out because I didn't talk enough. I didn't even know he was gay until he confessed to that in his departure note.

[rogue06]

Yet in Sweden, where trans are widely accepted, we still see this:

And that is in a society that accepts them so the excuse that they face constant discrimination cannot be used to explain their self-destructive behavior.