Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Why Democrats Can�t Talk Honestly About Abortion
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI know it is hard to accept pix. I couldn't believe it was saying what it was saying when I first came across it many years ago."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI know it is hard to accept pix. I couldn't believe it was saying what it was saying when I first came across it many years ago. I am not looking for any sort of justification.
You might also want to consider Numbers 5:11-31, which appears to outline a procedure by which a pregnant woman who her husband suspects of adultery is made to drink a small dose of poison, and pray for God's judgment. If the fetus then dies, everyone can know she had been unfaithful and the fetus had been conceived through adultery, while if the fetus lives then everyone can know that she was faithful and the child is, indeed, her husband's child.
Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostAnd in ancient Rome, half of all the children born died before the age of ten. Does that make them not human?
Leviticus 27
2 When a person makes an explicit vow to the Lord concerning the equivalent for a human being, 3 the equivalent for a male shall be: from twenty to sixty years of age the equivalent shall be fifty shekels of silver by the sanctuary shekel. 4 If the person is a female, the equivalent is thirty shekels. 5 If the age is from five to twenty years of age, the equivalent is twenty shekels for a male and ten shekels for a female. 6 If the age is from one month to five years, the equivalent for a male is five shekels of silver, and for a female the equivalent is three shekels of silver. 7 And if the person is sixty years old or over, then the equivalent for a male is fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe point is that the word used for birth does not always mean live birth as Piper claims. Because of that, and the fact it is in the plural which implies multiple parts come forth as in a premature birth where the fetus is still very small, he concludes it means miscarriage. All of that is missed by Piper. This fellow is fully against abortion, so please don't try to imply that interpretation in some way opens the door to devaluing the humanity of the fetus, or that it contradicts in any way the remainder of your reasons for valuing human life from conception.
You seem to be reacting to my raising this issue as if somehow I am trying to claim abortion is ok. That is the 'black/white' thinking person's response. I raised the issue because there is a difference in the scripture made between the death of the unborn baby and the mother in this passage when I was discussing with CP my thoughts on when the fetus becomes fully human. That difference must be taken into account in any discussion of abortion. Glossing over it or ignoring it leads to ignorance. It's like every other issue where Christians feel threatened by the facts. We can't be that way. God is not afraid of the truth. And if we are not afraid of the truth, then when we make mistakes, we can get set right and put on the right path. That is much better than holding onto some belief that ultimately is wrong. Case in point - through our discussion I have learned things about this passage I did not know. Isn't that a good thing? Does a difference of opinion always have to be about crushing the guy the dares think something different than you do?
Jim
At best, IF you are correct, they are saying a child's life is worth less than the woman's life. That in no way says anything about a fetus being worth less than a baby. Or that a fetus isn't a person. Are there any passages that mention the death of an infant and the penalties? Maybe in their culture a woman was worth more because she can have more babies. All that is IF you are correct. I don't think you are.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThat was my first question. Is he qualified to make that assessment of the text? I see that the author also prefers the translation "yet there is no further injury" which is not consistent with the original Hebrew, so I consider the addition of the word "further" to be a translation error (the author never addresses this point), and this effectively upends the rest of the argument.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostHey sparko, did you read the article I linked to?
Where piper says: So the word for miscarry is not used but a word is used that elsewhere does not mean miscarry but ordinary live birth.
he's actually not correct there. The article I linked to goes into why.
JimThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwell since I am not an expert on Hebrew I have to rely on people who are. I simply think Piper is more qualified.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe word is plural because she might have more than one child.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd I assume you would not dispute that it is, indeed, a human cell -- containing all the DNA information....
Any of those cells has the innate capacity to grow into a copy of you if subjected to the right environment (That is how scientists can create clones - take a cell, flip a few switches on it to trigger it to create a full human, and stick it in a favorable environment).
A fertilized embryo is not a particularly unusual cell. It has all the same features in general that most of the other cells in your body do. Pretty much the only difference is that its had a few switches flipped to tell it to start creating a full human. All the other cells have the same features and capabilities, just as all other lightbulbs in your house have the capability of glowing if you flick the switch. At the biological level there's nothing particularly special or unusual about the newly fertilized embryo any more than a light bulb you happen to be currently using is innately much different to other lights in your house that you're not currently using.
This is one reason why actual scientists aren't generally that sympathetic to the anti-abortion position, because biologically speaking, the embryo is just a cell like any other of the 37 trillion your body has."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI am impressed. Most US anti-abortionists I have encountered either don't seem to know that bit of the bible exists, or refuse to believe what it says.
You might also want to consider Numbers 5:11-31, which appears to outline a procedure by which a pregnant woman who her husband suspects of adultery is made to drink a small dose of poison, and pray for God's judgment. If the fetus then dies, everyone can know she had been unfaithful and the fetus had been conceived through adultery, while if the fetus lives then everyone can know that she was faithful and the child is, indeed, her husband's child.
For possibly a similar reason the Bible when it explicitly outlines the monetary value of each type of human, the value of a child is only one tenth of that of an adult. Either that or it is crudely endorsing a mental-function based value scale similar to the one I outlined. I note the value it implicitly places on any baby younger than 1 month of age is zero.
Leviticus 27
2 When a person makes an explicit vow to the Lord concerning the equivalent for a human being, 3 the equivalent for a male shall be: from twenty to sixty years of age the equivalent shall be fifty shekels of silver by the sanctuary shekel. 4 If the person is a female, the equivalent is thirty shekels. 5 If the age is from five to twenty years of age, the equivalent is twenty shekels for a male and ten shekels for a female. 6 If the age is from one month to five years, the equivalent for a male is five shekels of silver, and for a female the equivalent is three shekels of silver. 7 And if the person is sixty years old or over, then the equivalent for a male is fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIt's ironic that in a thread supposedly about democrats not talking honestly about abortion, a republican posts garbage like that."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Oh, about that passage star's referred to?
Lev 27.1ff: The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate persons to the LORD by giving equivalent values, 3 set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; 4 and if it is a female, set her value at thirty shekels............. 8 If anyone making the vow is too poor to pay the specified amount, he is to present the person to the priest, who will set the value for him according to what the man making the vow can afford.
Observations: This passages concerns 'temporary slave-servants' of YHWH. A male or female could dedicate himself/herself to the LORD's service, and typically would buy themselves back. If they did NOT pay the redemption price, they were actual servants for life, dedicated to cult-related work (including servants to the priests). Thus, such a vow/dedication amounted to semi-slavery.
What is interesting about this passage is that the redemption value for women is LOWER than that for men. What this CANNOT mean, however, is that the value of female slaves is LESS THAN the value of male slaves, because the law concerning the murder/manslaughter of these indicated IDENTICAL values (cf. Ex 21.20-32 placed the exact same monetary values on both sexes). What this passage nets out at, then, is that the Law simply made it easier for women to buy their freedom than for men (or to have someone else buy it for them)! Perhaps this is a simple recognition of the lower earning power of female slaves(?), but in any case, God made provision for His daughters to have a better shot at buying their freedom than His sons! http://christianthinktank.com/fem02b.htmlIf it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostAre you aware that most of the ~37 trillion cells in your body are human cells containing all the DNA information?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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